Vick

[twocoach]

I miss frank and devonte.

So does Self.

[Geezer]

The good Vick is just such a scoring machine.
The bad Vick on the other hand.

Consistency has been elusive for him.

[pdub]

Geezer is correct.
No glee in failure but hope for success.

[pdub]

Hawklin, I love your contributions here, but dude, you gotta be less sensitive. Pdub brought legitimate arguments backed by logic and stats given what outsider fans know, and repeated a common coloquialism.

The way Vick played Tuesday in the first half, as I said in the game thread while it was going on, was bizarre and like nothing I've ever seen. But Kansas fans im general jump on Vick like no player I have ever seen.

Link?

Dude, no one has been unfair to Vick. To pretend I’m the sensitive one in this discussion is why this community has always been frustrating.

couldn’t agree more

I mean, yes, I guess, but there has been a history of breakdown if you consider this community older than this site, and sensitivity to another opinion may or may not have caused you to loose your shit at one point.

[Sparko]

Vick as a complementary player had value. His time in Korea was a bright spot. He seems to be lost as a leader. He was flat out miserable Tuesday. His lack of consistent shooting was puzzling. His lack of consistent effort was unforgivable. That is the one thing that I simply will not watch. Give me a Turgeon or Lightfoot any day. Vick joins a couple pretty high star recruits who coasted too frequently.

[Mjl]

Vick as a complementary player had value. His time in Korea was a bright spot. He seems to be lost as a leader. He was flat out miserable Tuesday. His lack of consistent shooting was puzzling. His lack of consistent effort was unforgivable. That is the one thing that I simply will not watch. Give me a Turgeon or Lightfoot any day. Vick joins a couple pretty high star recruits who coasted too frequently.

Vick wasn't that much more highly regarded than Lightfoot out of High School. Why on Earth would you take someone completely unproductive like Lightfoot over the Big XII's leading three point shooter?

[Soklous]

Link?

Dude, no one has been unfair to Vick. To pretend I’m the sensitive one in this discussion is why this community has always been frustrating.

couldn’t agree more

I mean, yes, I guess, but there has been a history of breakdown if you consider this community older than this site, and sensitivity to another opinion may or may not have caused you to loose your shit at one point.

Awesome. I have no track record of any disagreement or argument of any kind on this site. But now you are using “history” to excuse your shitty behavior that of all people, gutter, had to call you out on. Maybe fuck off and just admit it was uncalled for.

[twocoach]

Oh my god, we're still sniping at each other over this stupid shit? Lets agree to disagree and move on. It's officially a dead horse now.

[CrimsonNBlue]

Hawklin, I love your contributions here, but dude, you gotta be less sensitive. Pdub brought legitimate arguments backed by logic and stats given what outsider fans know, and repeated a common coloquialism.

How logical is it to cherry pick stats to support dying on a hill for the sake of being a contrarian?

Your analysis is great, and you've been around the game enough to not be a complete spreadsheet warrior. I'm surprised of your endorsement here.

[pdub]

I wouldn't think three point percentage, on a team that, not including Vick, shoots 32 percent from deep, would be cherry picking stats.

[CrimsonNBlue]

Kansas fans im general jump on Vick like no player I have ever seen.

And this isn't necessarily directed at you, but this silly narrative has to die. The notion that fans are too hard on Vick for no reason is hilariously stupid. It completely ignores his verified rap sheet.

- The Laura Bauer and crazy women's ball player dad sure seems like it was bullshit, so he gets a pass on that.

- This is a guy that's been suspended and/or bench in each of his last 3 seasons

- A player that on the court that steeply and rather consistently regresses against athletes and skill level closer to his own. The no 20-point game in conference until this season as well as other statistical splits back this up.

- I know everyone wants to ignore the Title IX violation because of the burden of proof, and doing what I do, I also have large reservations with the system. But the remaining undeniable fact is that the University of Kansas found and endorsed the charge. You can do whatever mental gymnastics it takes to say it didn't happen (and I have), but the underlying fact is still there.

It's quite crazy to me that anyone would sit here and cry to "Leave Vick Alone!" He's been a troubled player that Bill has gone above and beyond for. How can anyone wonder why many or most fans have put him into the same bin as Brannen, JR and CJ?

[pdub]

Regardless of all this, he's ( was ) our 2nd leading scorer, shooting at a good percentage, and a number of posters here seemed more than eager for him to fail.
And now I suppose they have what they were after.

[TDub]

Pdub you are missing the important distinction between "eager" and "completely unsurprised...dammit, I knew this would happen"

[pdub]

I’m not defending Vick for his off the court transgressions more than I’m saying stop wanting him to fuck up because it fits your narrative.
He’s not in my favorite Jayhawks under Self. Ochai and Dotson in this year alone have taken his place. He’s an above average player ( on par with Svi in most basic metrics ) who I think deserves more than this problematic Jayhawk label that posters can’t wait to label him as.

He is just as good or better as other revered Jayhawks. He just doesn’t fit the bill.
I hope he comes back and figures it out because it’s beneficial to have a talented player on your team.

[jfish26]

My personal opinion is that, all things considered, we’re better off closing the book on Vick. I think the game to game unreliability makes the season stats misleading (and, yes, hollow).

Not knowing if we’re going to get effort and engagement on any given night really sucks, and we’re getting awfully close to a time of year where one dogshit effort/engagement night from a starter is enough to end our season.

In fact, given the hole we’ve dug ourselves in the league, we’re probably already there.

[twocoach]

I’m not defending Vick for his off the court transgressions more than I’m saying stop wanting him to fuck up because it fits your narrative.
He’s not in my favorite Jayhawks under Self. Ochai and Dotson in this year alone have taken his place. He’s an above average player ( on par with Svi in most basic metrics ) who I think deserves more than this problematic Jayhawk label that posters can’t wait to label him as.

He is just as good or better as other revered Jayhawks. He just doesn’t fit the bill.
I hope he comes back and figures it out because it’s beneficial to have a talented player on your team.

I am at this point......I hope what is being stated by the team is true and that he comes back because I would hate to see our coaching staff run a player out the door without a specific incident worthy of it. Vick being an inconsistent flake isn't a good enough reason to wash your hands of him.

Players talk. Some players mothers talk A LOT on social media. Future recruits listen. Throwing Vick to the curb because he didn't hustle on defense or pay attention to his assignment on offense would be a terrible precedent to set.

Vick's past has resulted in him being one of my least favorite Jayhawks that made it to their senior season. His off court behavior issues and his on court effort issues bother me. I recognize Vick's statistical contributions and their importance at the time and that's great but that isn't enough for me to like the guy as a fan favorite. I love Jayhawks who keep their nose clean and who bust their ass on the court, regardless of their stats. Vick simply isn't that guy. I am not required to love all current and former Jayhawks simply because they played for KU, even if they were amazing players.

I am going to go on the assumption that what is being stated is loosely the truth and that there is something going on with Vick's mom that requires he be home right now and that once that gets better he will be back with the team. A few weeks without Vick will give Dotson, Agbaji and Grimes some forced pressure to grow up and lead the team. Maybe now they can focus on what they are doing and not be distracted by whether Vick does what he's supposed to do or not.

If and when Vick gets back, my dream scenario is that the three freshmen have all stepped up enough that Self can keep Vick on a very short leash and sit him as soon as it is evident that he's having another space out game that makes you want to drug test him at halftime. My realistic scenario is that we need Vick to contribute more than he hurts us and will play him because we simply don't have a better choice if we want to try to win the most games.

[ousdahl]

I don’t think anyone wants Vick to fuck up. It’s - sigh - just not that surprising.

And my comment to bench him - as much as it pained me to say it, like I said - was entirely based on how he played at KSU and how he composed himself and how the team looked more like a team without him.

I’m apparently more forgiving of off-court shenanigans than I am of a player acting disengaged from a game he’s supposed to be playing in...especially for a dude who agreed to strict terms to return.

Pdub, with all due respect, could you just be frustrated cuz Vick isn’t fitting some narrative you wanted?

Cuz I’m frustrated about that too. The Prodigal Senior role was intriguing.

[Deleted User 75]

Our staff has forced players out for less than what Vick has done over his time at KU.

But I sort of believe there's something else going on and it isn't basketball related....but it's so hard to tell with Self. He's rarely truthful when it comes to player discipline issues (or eligibilty issues, etc).

Who knows. Vick makes us better, but he doesn't make us THAT much better that we should sacrifice the culture of our team because of him. I trust Self in this situation to do what's right for us this year as well as moving forward.

[TDub]

Take his november stats out for each season and he is not statistically on par with "revered" jayhawks. Good/great players get better when the season gets tougher. Its easy to see why people are frustrated. Not sure why pdub is so determined on this one

[Deleted User 89]

who here has been actively rooting for him to fail?

many of us are thinking, i told you so, but i doubt any of us want him to fail. if he succeeds, KU succeeds

and i’m not sold on the idea that he makes us better, given all of the issues...guess time will tell