Foreign aid to ukraine

[ousdahl]

1. I would like one example for, yes, call it specificity. I genuinely do not recall you posting “verified data about the nazi issue and numbers of nazis in the Ukrainian forces etc.” if I missed it the first time around, please forgive me, and direct me to it now. For real, I’m teeing this one up for you. Also, I condemn Putin, again!

2. Why? Cuz you let me live in your head, I guess. But I don’t even think it’s me who lives in your head, so much as it is some boogeyman you’ve created.
a. I don’t consider it to be a specific response to just say “OnE HuNdReD SiXtY PagEs!!” over and over…sorry
b. I HAVE been specific! To suggest otherwise is gaslighting! Just look here, where I’ve provided specific sources, again, and at your request! also, I’ve hardly posted memes at all, and avoid the rhetorical questions! that’s just you freaking out about the boogeyman!
c. Well at least you’ve admitted your end game is, perhaps, just to be annoying.

If it makes you feel better, or if it might actually get a more valid response than you’ve provided thus far, sure, go ahead and assume I really am that dense. Again, I’m teeing this up for you here.

And, yes, holy fuck is right.

[ousdahl]

ok, so maybe that particular verbiage was a tad hyperbolic. Sorry, I thought you guys would realize that.

but, come on! mjl has pushed the "this is a clear battle between good and evil" sort of rhetoric about Ukraine as much as/maybe more than anyone else. As if global politics can be reduced to comic book hero storylines.

More so, anyone suggesting Ukraine as anything less than "the good guys" with only the purest and most noble intentions has got, and still gets, an awful lot of hell for it.

and, mjl, you prob won't read this, but kindly spare us the "intentionally manipulative" fuss. You've tried to gaslight me as much as/maybe more than anyone else in the history of the boreds.

You've had this same rant for months and have gotten the same response for months. Supporting Ukraine in their fight against Russia does not require support of all aspects of everything related to Ukraine. A sovereign nation should not be invaded by a foreign nation and their citizens should not be raped, tortured, mutilated, kidnapped and imprisoned. Period.

You say “period” as if you don’t afford at least one yuge exception here.

I think you mean “period” more so only as “when Russia does it.”

The fact that some people who live in or even fight for Ukraine may individually be truly horrible people does not change that. Period.

see my previous point then read this again.

[twocoach]

ok, so maybe that particular verbiage was a tad hyperbolic. Sorry, I thought you guys would realize that.

but, come on! mjl has pushed the "this is a clear battle between good and evil" sort of rhetoric about Ukraine as much as/maybe more than anyone else. As if global politics can be reduced to comic book hero storylines.

More so, anyone suggesting Ukraine as anything less than "the good guys" with only the purest and most noble intentions has got, and still gets, an awful lot of hell for it.

and, mjl, you prob won't read this, but kindly spare us the "intentionally manipulative" fuss. You've tried to gaslight me as much as/maybe more than anyone else in the history of the boreds.

You've had this same rant for months and have gotten the same response for months. Supporting Ukraine in their fight against Russia does not require support of all aspects of everything related to Ukraine. A sovereign nation should not be invaded by a foreign nation and their citizens should not be raped, tortured, mutilated, kidnapped and imprisoned. Period.

You say “period” as if you don’t afford at least one yuge exception here.

I think you mean “period” more so only as “when Russia does it.”

The fact that some people who live in or even fight for Ukraine may individually be truly horrible people does not change that. Period.

see my previous point then read this again.

I think you mean “period” more so only as “when Russia does it.”

Do you think I would feel differently if Germany was invading Denmark and Denmark's citizens were being raped, tortured, mutilated, kidnapped and imprisoned by German troops? If so, you would be mistaken. I don't think I have ever been "fine" with some other country doing what Russia is doing in Ukraine but feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Or maybe you just failed to make your point.

[KUTradition]

his attempted points are 1) that the US isn’t much different from russia; and 2) Ukraine is somehow similar to Iraq and/or Afghanistan (though, when pressed about he fails to expound on that analogy)

[ousdahl]

Show us your work towards what? What specifically are you working towards? You should probably figure that out before you get mad it isn't happening.

I'm working towards the point that I think the Ukraine fiasco is more likely to end up like Iraq and Afghanistan ended up, than it is to end up some success story in freedom and democracy.

Are you trying to convince us there are some scumbag Nazi-minded assholes in the Ukrainian Army? No shit. I suspect they have them a similar % that exists in the US Army, which if someone ever figured out an accurate % would probably be alarmingly high.

no shit is right.

imho any amount of nazis is alarmingly high. Any amount of nazis among any official ranks is even more alarming. And, yes, unfortunate though it is, there are nazis in pretty much every country. What makes Ukraine unique is, it's the only country I'm aware of that currently has soldiers openly wearing nazi insignia right their on their uniforms, up to and including soldiers among the country leader's own personal detail.

Are you trying to convince us that their % of Nazi assholes is large enough that we should pull military and financial support

Yes.

and let the Russian Army overrun their nation and rape, pillage and murder them out of existence? You aren't going to accomplish that so stop having it as a goal if it is one.

see, I think the raping, pillaging, murdering, and war crimes at large are not necessarily unique to the Russian army, but are more a feature of warmongering at large. Ukraine was described as a humanitarian crisis before Russia ever invaded, but once again, you only seem that concerned when Russia's doing it. And, you don't seem the least bit concerned whether your and my tax dollars furnishing "lethal aid" might be doing it.

regarding goals to accomplish, I'm just not sure the solution to war is more war. There's some disagreement whether "lethal aid" is, and has been, helping the situation, or hurting it.

And I just think it's fishy that there are apparent reports like, China calls for peace, and Europe calls for peace, and Israel calls for peace, and Africa calls for peace, and Russia calls for peace, and Ukraine calls for peace, yet the United States's stance remains, "stand with Ukraine no matter how long it takes!"

[ousdahl]

You've had this same rant for months and have gotten the same response for months. Supporting Ukraine in their fight against Russia does not require support of all aspects of everything related to Ukraine. A sovereign nation should not be invaded by a foreign nation and their citizens should not be raped, tortured, mutilated, kidnapped and imprisoned. Period.

You say “period” as if you don’t afford at least one yuge exception here.

I think you mean “period” more so only as “when Russia does it.”

The fact that some people who live in or even fight for Ukraine may individually be truly horrible people does not change that. Period.

see my previous point then read this again.

I think you mean “period” more so only as “when Russia does it.”

Do you think I would feel differently if Germany was invading Denmark and Denmark's citizens were being raped, tortured, mutilated, kidnapped and imprisoned by German troops? If so, you would be mistaken. I don't think I have ever been "fine" with some other country doing what Russia is doing in Ukraine but feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Or maybe you just failed to make your point.

I think you mean differently if, say, Israel was doing it to Syria. Or if France was doing it to Niger. Or if the United States was doing it to any number of shithole countries in real time.

and by "feel differently," I think you'd feel little about any of that at all. I think there's a massive display of hypocrisy in only getting this worked up when Russia does it.

[ousdahl]

his attempted points are 1) that the US isn’t much different from russia; and 2) Ukraine is somehow similar to Iraq and/or Afghanistan (though, when pressed about he fails to expound on that analogy)

1. in a sense, yea, it's just another imperial cock measuring contest. And, like I said, the US invades countries all the time, always has. But, like I said, we mostly just don't care, or even justify it...until Russia does it too.

2. yea. And, to be fair, I think I (and my comrade DCHawk1) HAVE expounded on that analogy.

Both are being sold to us by the same dipshits. Both are a "windfall" for the Halliburtons and Raytheons, with both containing assets and resources western investors drool over. Both are ravaging the country where it's happening. Both, at the same points, are wars with no end in sight. Both have/have had implications as some strategic pawn against the big bad boogeyman geopolitical rivals.

I thought the MIC's reputation and credibility post-Afghanistan was at an all-time low, but go figure 6 months later, Mericans at large are more than willing to gulp down the MIC propaganda again anyway. At the very least, I think the U.S. war machine should bear some burden of demonstrating how this one's gonna end up any better than Iraq or Afghanistan.

If there are differences, it's things like...

- Zelensky is playing ball and basically acting as a regional manager of sorts for western interests (for now). But then again, Saddam started out in a similar position too.

- Zelensky and the pro-western gummint in Ukraine might be cooler with western investors gobbling up Ukrainian resources, when Iraq and Afghanistan mighta been a little more reluctant.

- Ukraine is mostly white

- Iraq and Afghanistan at least ended up with some sort of conclusion, sort of. Ukraine is still ongoing, "no matter how long it takes!" With Afghanistan, it took 20 fucking years, as if the MIC was literally having some contest to outlast even Vietnam; with Iraq, there were a lot of headlines floating around middle eastern media this week like, "Iraqi prime minister says foreign troops no longer needed in their country as U.S. secretly sends troops back." Think about that for a second.

Heck, even tho those wars are "over," a cursory search says we still established 12 U.S. military bases in Iraq, and 6 in Afghanistan....if Russia suddenly declared the Ukraine invasion was "over" and packed their shit up and went home, but left a bunch of Russian military bases all over Ukraine, I dunno if many folks would consider that "over."

[ousdahl]

ok, so maybe that particular verbiage was a tad hyperbolic. Sorry, I thought you guys would realize that.

but, come on! mjl has pushed the "this is a clear battle between good and evil" sort of rhetoric about Ukraine as much as/maybe more than anyone else. As if global politics can be reduced to comic book hero storylines.

More so, anyone suggesting Ukraine as anything less than "the good guys" with only the purest and most noble intentions has got, and still gets, an awful lot of hell for it.

and, mjl, you prob won't read this, but kindly spare us the "intentionally manipulative" fuss. You've tried to gaslight me as much as/maybe more than anyone else in the history of the boreds.

You've had this same rant for months and have gotten the same response for months. Supporting Ukraine in their fight against Russia does not require support of all aspects of everything related to Ukraine. A sovereign nation should not be invaded by a foreign nation and their citizens should not be raped, tortured, mutilated, kidnapped and imprisoned. Period.

The fact that some people who live in or even fight for Ukraine may individually be truly horrible people does not change that. Period.

We supported Stalin during WWII, he was no choirboy.

lol

I've commented this before, but - after WWII and seeing the atrocities committed by Nazi Germany, you'd think there woulda been/been more of a nazi purge among allied powers.

But instead, we got communist purges, hello Mccarthyism, went from being allies with the soviets to hating the soviets, and promoted Hitler's chief of staff to chairman of NATO instead.

[jhawks99]

We weren't good buddies with the soviets pre-war

[TDub]

Russia is actively invading a sovereign nation and killing innocent civilians. We aren't on some ghost hunt for WMDs. We don't have our boots on the ground, at least not yet. You can continue to say they are the same but they aren't. The end of the war would be simple, Putin removes Russia from Ukrainian soil. Done.

[Sparko]

Russia is actively invading a sovereign nation and killing innocent civilians. We aren't on some ghost hunt for WMDs. We don't have our boots on the ground, at least not yet. You can continue to say they are the same but they aren't. The end of the war would be simple, Putin removes Russia from Ukrainian soil. Done.

Cannot be said enough. Let's help them finish the job.

[twocoach]

You say “period” as if you don’t afford at least one yuge exception here.

I think you mean “period” more so only as “when Russia does it.”


see my previous point then read this again.

I think you mean “period” more so only as “when Russia does it.”

Do you think I would feel differently if Germany was invading Denmark and Denmark's citizens were being raped, tortured, mutilated, kidnapped and imprisoned by German troops? If so, you would be mistaken. I don't think I have ever been "fine" with some other country doing what Russia is doing in Ukraine but feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Or maybe you just failed to make your point.

I think you mean differently if, say, Israel was doing it to Syria. Or if France was doing it to Niger. Or if the United States was doing it to any number of shithole countries in real time.

and by "feel differently," I think you'd feel little about any of that at all. I think there's a massive display of hypocrisy in only getting this worked up when Russia does it.

Nothing I personally have said would ever lead you to think that about me. It is solely a figment of your assumptions to support your argument. When you support your argument with a bunch of wildly inaccurate assumptions then it's hard to take your argument seriously which is why you end up getting bashed over and over in this conversation.

You keep wondering why this conversation is going this way and we keep telling you but you keep doing the same thing.

[KUTradition]

Russia is actively invading a sovereign nation and killing innocent civilians. We aren't on some ghost hunt for WMDs. We don't have our boots on the ground, at least not yet. You can continue to say they are the same but they aren't. The end of the war would be simple, Putin removes Russia from Ukrainian soil. Done.

it really is this simple

[ousdahl]

I suppose that's a good point that "we aren't on some ghost hunt for WMDs," and perhaps some distinguishing difference between Ukraine and Iraq.

But, the Iraq rhetoric about WMDs at least had some relatively more specific goal in mind. Ukraine's rhetoric of "stand with Ukraine, no matter how long it takes" is comparatively more vague.

If the two examples DO have anything in common, it's that the justifying rhetoric itself seems fishy - tho I know many folks think the MIC dipshits are suddenly playing us like so totally straight this time.

I agree that Putin should remove Russia from Ukrainian soil. But, I dunno if that necessarily brings peace to Ukraine, considering the humanitarian crisis and infighting that was already going on prior to the full-scale invasion. Maybe it's simply NEVER a good idea to give guns to nazis, period. And, either way, it still leaves Ukraine a war-torn mess.

At the risk of asking some open-ended rhetorical questions (sorry) - if Russia DID just take their ball and go home, are we still standing with Ukraine then? And how exactly are we standing? Would it be still primarily in a "lethal aid" kinda way, still just flooding the place with weapons even tho the war is over?

I don't think it's a stretch to think the American public at large would still approve of that without questioning, and maybe even still gobble up, the "cuz just in case Ukraine needs to be able to defend itself!" sort of rhetoric as justification for still sending Ukraine weapons by the tens of bajillions of dollars worth, paid for by you and me.

Or would this "standing" become more humanitarian, in a rebuilding war-torn areas kinda way?

...cuz the thing about that is, I dunno if the US has done much to help rebuild war-torn Iraq or Afghanistan, either.

(and, yea, the sorts of points about why are we doing all this humanitarian shit for some other country when we could just be doing things to improve our own country first.)

if the US's interest in Ukraine is less about helping the people of Ukraine, and more about treating Ukraine as just another windfall for the MIC, those evil rich people prob want the Russian invasion of Ukraine to drag on as long as possible. Maybe that's even why the MIC did so much to provok...never mind, heh heh.

And, considering this all came on the coattails of Afghanistan AKA the longest war in our nation's history, the "as long as it takes" rhetoric about Ukraine is kind of a slap in the face of the American people...not that the American people will even notice.

[ousdahl]

I think you mean “period” more so only as “when Russia does it.”

Do you think I would feel differently if Germany was invading Denmark and Denmark's citizens were being raped, tortured, mutilated, kidnapped and imprisoned by German troops? If so, you would be mistaken. I don't think I have ever been "fine" with some other country doing what Russia is doing in Ukraine but feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Or maybe you just failed to make your point.

I think you mean differently if, say, Israel was doing it to Syria. Or if France was doing it to Niger. Or if the United States was doing it to any number of shithole countries in real time.

and by "feel differently," I think you'd feel little about any of that at all. I think there's a massive display of hypocrisy in only getting this worked up when Russia does it.

Nothing I personally have said would ever lead you to think that about me. It is solely a figment of your assumptions to support your argument. When you support your argument with a bunch of wildly inaccurate assumptions then it's hard to take your argument seriously which is why you end up getting bashed over and over in this conversation.

You keep wondering why this conversation is going this way and we keep telling you but you keep doing the same thing.

you're right.

forgive me, I don't want to put words in your mouth.

perhaps I was reading more into what you DIDN'T say - which is to say, when I posted about other invasions about other countries, I don't recall you speaking out to condemn the invasions like you have about Russia.

[jfish26]

I suppose that's a good point that "we aren't on some ghost hunt for WMDs," and perhaps some distinguishing difference between Ukraine and Iraq.

But, the Iraq rhetoric about WMDs at least had some relatively more specific goal in mind. Ukraine's rhetoric of "stand with Ukraine, no matter how long it takes" is comparatively more vague.

If the two examples DO have anything in common, it's that the justifying rhetoric itself seems fishy - tho I know many folks think the MIC dipshits are suddenly playing us like so totally straight this time.

I agree that Putin should remove Russia from Ukrainian soil. But, I dunno if that necessarily brings peace to Ukraine, considering the humanitarian crisis and infighting that was already going on prior to the full-scale invasion. Maybe it's simply NEVER a good idea to give guns to nazis, period. And, either way, it still leaves Ukraine a war-torn mess.

At the risk of asking some open-ended rhetorical questions (sorry) - if Russia DID just take their ball and go home, are we still standing with Ukraine then? And how exactly are we standing? Would it be still primarily in a "lethal aid" kinda way, still just flooding the place with weapons even tho the war is over?

I don't think it's a stretch to think the American public at large would still approve of that without questioning, and maybe even still gobble up, the "cuz just in case Ukraine needs to be able to defend itself!" sort of rhetoric as justification for still sending Ukraine weapons by the tens of bajillions of dollars worth, paid for by you and me.

Or would this "standing" become more humanitarian, in a rebuilding war-torn areas kinda way?

...cuz the thing about that is, I dunno if the US has done much to help rebuild war-torn Iraq or Afghanistan, either.

(and, yea, the sorts of points about why are we doing all this humanitarian shit for some other country when we could just be doing things to improve our own country first.)

if the US's interest in Ukraine is less about helping the people of Ukraine, and more about treating Ukraine as just another windfall for the MIC, those evil rich people prob want the Russian invasion of Ukraine to drag on as long as possible. Maybe that's even why the MIC did so much to provok...never mind, heh heh.

And, considering this all came on the coattails of Afghanistan AKA the longest war in our nation's history, the "as long as it takes" rhetoric about Ukraine is kind of a slap in the face of the American people...not that the American people will even notice.

Feels a lot like you’re swimming in the zone that has intentionally been flooded with shit. It’s just not remotely this complicated.

[jfish26]

[Sparko]

Putin's buddy. Ukraine still stands because this lunatic was driven from power.

[randylahey]

What a wild wild coincidence

[randylahey]

Zelensky now wants American financial aid for Ukraine to have an election??? Lol