The 2024 Presidential Debate Thread

[Shirley]

would you consider what he said to be deceptive/deceitful?

I think he knows where the money is.

As in, how to increase the likelihood that Trump will include him in his administration, and how to appeal to rich republican donors.

[jfish26]

would you consider what he said to be deceptive/deceitful?

I think it’s certainly disingenuous for him to fudge on things he knows to be facts.

[DCHawk1]

And mark my words, Vivek is eagerly anticipating a reporter asking him the "right" question.

"You said climate change is a 'hoax.' Can you tell me...."

"Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait...I did NOT say climate change is a hoax. But let me tell you what IS a hoax...."

Too clever by half.

DC's right, Vivek said the "the climate change agenda is a hoax".

Vivek knows that the future, the younger demographic, considers climate change a more important problem than the older demographic. (Although, thankfully, not by much. Plus, the rate of it becoming more important across age demographics is increasing at the same rate*.)

Vivek and DC know that decade after decade after decade of republicans denying Global Warming is even a thing, in service to their benefactors, day after day after day of ever-increasing all-time high temperature records along with what can seem like nearly half of N. America on fire at times this summer, makes the argument about the very existence of climate change harder and harder to make, even to their cult.

When the facts are on your side, argue the facts.

The "facts" are not on their side so like Vivek during the debate, yesterday DC invited us to participate in a discussion about the process. It's not that the "process" doesn't need a nearly infinite amount of discussion, or that I/we wouldn't likely learn a lot from it, especially since we've never been here before, but by cynically contesting the "facts" for so many decades in service to the extraction industries, et al, seamlessly segueing now to a likely never-ending discussion about "process" while the polar ice caps continue to melt and climate refugees continue to increase globally, might strike a reasonable person as being a little rich.


*4/5/23 Gen Z and Millennials (60%)1 are more likely to be either Alarmed or Concerned about global warming than Gen X (53%), or Baby Boomers and older generations (53%). Gen Z and Millennials (16%) are also less likely to be either Doubtful or Dismissive than Gen X (21%), or Baby Boomers and older generations (25%).

Let’s use this as another waypoint on Vivek.

His language - that the agenda is a hoax, but not the issue itself - was super, super intentional. Just like the “mental health” discussion yesterday, Vivek is letting people hear what they want to hear. Someone who thinks human-caused climate change is a hoax, can hear Vivek say that.

So, what he said isn’t dishonest. But it very much is knowingly vague.

He’s great with words. Accordingly, he should be held to account for precisely what he says, and how, and why.

My point exactly.

He will circle back when given the opportunity: "I did NOT say climate change is a hoax. I said the agenda is. And let me explain why..."

He gets to (or at least gets to try to) play both sides of the issue.

My expectation is that it will not go as smoothly as he expects, hence "too clever by half."

[Shirley]

^^^

Good insight.

[jfish26]

DC's right, Vivek said the "the climate change agenda is a hoax".

Vivek knows that the future, the younger demographic, considers climate change a more important problem than the older demographic. (Although, thankfully, not by much. Plus, the rate of it becoming more important across age demographics is increasing at the same rate*.)

Vivek and DC know that decade after decade after decade of republicans denying Global Warming is even a thing, in service to their benefactors, day after day after day of ever-increasing all-time high temperature records along with what can seem like nearly half of N. America on fire at times this summer, makes the argument about the very existence of climate change harder and harder to make, even to their cult.

When the facts are on your side, argue the facts.

The "facts" are not on their side so like Vivek during the debate, yesterday DC invited us to participate in a discussion about the process. It's not that the "process" doesn't need a nearly infinite amount of discussion, or that I/we wouldn't likely learn a lot from it, especially since we've never been here before, but by cynically contesting the "facts" for so many decades in service to the extraction industries, et al, seamlessly segueing now to a likely never-ending discussion about "process" while the polar ice caps continue to melt and climate refugees continue to increase globally, might strike a reasonable person as being a little rich.


*4/5/23 Gen Z and Millennials (60%)1 are more likely to be either Alarmed or Concerned about global warming than Gen X (53%), or Baby Boomers and older generations (53%). Gen Z and Millennials (16%) are also less likely to be either Doubtful or Dismissive than Gen X (21%), or Baby Boomers and older generations (25%).

Let’s use this as another waypoint on Vivek.

His language - that the agenda is a hoax, but not the issue itself - was super, super intentional. Just like the “mental health” discussion yesterday, Vivek is letting people hear what they want to hear. Someone who thinks human-caused climate change is a hoax, can hear Vivek say that.

So, what he said isn’t dishonest. But it very much is knowingly vague.

He’s great with words. Accordingly, he should be held to account for precisely what he says, and how, and why.

My point exactly.

He will circle back when given the opportunity: "I did NOT say climate change is a hoax. I said the agenda is. And let me explain why..."

He gets to (or at least gets to try to) play both sides of the issue.

My expectation is that it will not go as smoothly as he expects, hence "too clever by half."

And this is where Vivek’s end game gets so interesting. I think he gets bulldozed by Trump if they’re ever directly opposed. And he knows that.

This is NOT a play to beat Trump.

[Sparko]

Standing on that stage, not acknowledging climate change, is a complete sell-out beyond the cynical revisionism and "cleverness" tropes. And that was not the only thing as he is also a Trump pardoner. How many liars can dance on the head of an aphorism? We should not give a shit.

[DCHawk1]

And this is where Vivek’s end game gets so interesting. I think he gets bulldozed by Trump if they’re ever directly opposed. And he knows that.

This is NOT a play to beat Trump.

I don't disagree.

Part of me hopes that he intends to wait to develop a strategy for dealing with Trump directly until he has to.

But the bigger part of me assumes that he purposefully running for second place.

[jfish26]

And this is where Vivek’s end game gets so interesting. I think he gets bulldozed by Trump if they’re ever directly opposed. And he knows that.

This is NOT a play to beat Trump.

I don't disagree.

Part of me hopes that he intends to wait to develop a strategy for dealing with Trump directly until he has to.

But the bigger part of me assumes that he purposefully running for second place.

But second place…why exactly? I don’t think he actually wants to serve as Vice President.

So is he positioning himself to step into the big chair before the election?

Is he bold enough to get the VP nod (clearing the field), and then adopt the 14th amendment argument?

[mjl2]

And this is where Vivek’s end game gets so interesting. I think he gets bulldozed by Trump if they’re ever directly opposed. And he knows that.

This is NOT a play to beat Trump.

I don't disagree.

Part of me hopes that he intends to wait to develop a strategy for dealing with Trump directly until he has to.

But the bigger part of me assumes that he purposefully running for second place.

First thing is establish himself in second place.
Then go after Trump on appointments (Fauci, Wray, etc) and his record of not getting rid of the Deep State.
That's the path.

[Sparko]

These arguments are fascinating only in the suspension of disbelief sphere.

[DCHawk1]

These arguments are fascinating only in the suspension of disbelief sphere.

Kinda

[zsn]

விவேக் is smart enough to not talk about how he is different from Trump and why he should be the nominee and more importantly why Trump shouldn’t be the nominee. In fact, he’s put himself into a corner by not only missing the opportunity during the debate to make the distinction but hitching himself to Trump more strongly.

His supporters are too stupid to understand the contradiction.

[Sparko]

விவேக் is smart enough to not talk about how he is different from Trump and why he should be the nominee and more importantly why Trump shouldn’t be the nominee. In fact, he’s put himself into a corner by not only missing the opportunity during the debate to make the distinction but hitching himself to Trump more strongly.

His supporters are too stupid to understand the contradiction.

This is what I found fascinating about the discussion here; arguing which lies were most beneficial to a hypocrite attempting to win favor with an extremist right wing base

[ousdahl]

Culture wars are all there is -- and all there has been since about...1968.

That none of you recognizes that the "Left" (such as it is) is ALL about culture wars and, indeed, was the original ideology of the culture warrior is interesting but not especially unsurprising.