Let’s have a war!

[MICHHAWK]

exactly. there is none.

[KUTradition]

or you could just remain a lazy, miserable, old, pos trolling on message boards

[Shirley]

how does one differentiate between bill gates and elon musk.

In my professional opinion, you shouldn't risk overwhelming both of your synapses, trying.

You're welcome.

No charge.

[jfish26]

how does one differentiate between bill gates and elon musk.

Well, for purposes of...you know, this thread about Russia's war on Ukraine...

* Bill Gates is apparently uninvolved; and

* Elon Musk controls technology vital to one side of the war but is buddy-buddy with the other side of the war.

This is a minor difference, but.

[KUTradition]

https://thehill.com/policy/internationa ... tions/amp/

[jfish26]

https://thehill.com/policy/internationa ... tions/amp/

Of course, and:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/9/1 ... stem-putin

Taken together: Putin is making an agent-in-plain-sight of Musk, by appealing to what motivates him, much in the same way as he's done with Trump.

[jfish26]

Let's talk about what "normalizing" means.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/12/asia/kim ... index.html

Trump - ever infatuated with "strong man" leaders - cozied up to Kim Jong Un (and to Putin, also a "strong man" leader).

Now Kim Jong Un is going to supply Putin with offensive weapons to be used against Ukrainian citizens, in
a war of unilateral aggression, in exchange for weapons technology that the US and some of its closest allies (Japan and Korea) have a direct and immediate interest in keeping out of Kim's hands.

But because Trump cozied up to Kim and Putin, and because Trump adopts (and others, including Elon, adopt) Putin's talking points on Ukraine, pubs' tongues will be tied on this obviously-bad situation.

This is what "normalizing" really means. It means hand-waving away a clear error in judgment, and then having to sit idly by when that clear error in judgment has consequences.

[Shirley]

Let's talk about what "normalizing" means.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/12/asia/kim ... index.html

Trump - ever infatuated with "strong man" leaders - cozied up to Kim Jong Un (and to Putin, also a "strong man" leader).

Now Kim Jong Un is going to supply Putin with offensive weapons to be used against Ukrainian citizens, in
a war of unilateral aggression, in exchange for weapons technology that the US and some of its closest allies (Japan and Korea) have a direct and immediate interest in keeping out of Kim's hands.

But because Trump cozied up to Kim and Putin, and because Trump adopts (and others, including Elon, adopt) Putin's talking points on Ukraine, pubs' tongues will be tied on this obviously-bad situation.

This is what "normalizing" really means. It means hand-waving away a clear error in judgment, and then having to sit idly by when that clear error in judgment has consequences.

^^^

It's exactly like FAFO,

only different.

[jfish26]

Let's talk about what "normalizing" means.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/12/asia/kim ... index.html

Trump - ever infatuated with "strong man" leaders - cozied up to Kim Jong Un (and to Putin, also a "strong man" leader).

Now Kim Jong Un is going to supply Putin with offensive weapons to be used against Ukrainian citizens, in
a war of unilateral aggression, in exchange for weapons technology that the US and some of its closest allies (Japan and Korea) have a direct and immediate interest in keeping out of Kim's hands.

But because Trump cozied up to Kim and Putin, and because Trump adopts (and others, including Elon, adopt) Putin's talking points on Ukraine, pubs' tongues will be tied on this obviously-bad situation.

This is what "normalizing" really means. It means hand-waving away a clear error in judgment, and then having to sit idly by when that clear error in judgment has consequences.

^^^

It's exactly like FAFO,

only different.

It's frog-boiling.

[Shirley]

Some days you eat the bear,
Some days the bear eats you:

[jfish26]

Wonder how many fewer dead Ukrainians there would be if Ukraine had knocked out the Black Sea fleet. Wonder how much less US money and materiel would have been needed.

[Shirley]

[Shirley]

[jfish26]

I’d say SINO, but that gets complicated (and dad-jokey) really quickly.

[ousdahl]

man.

I know how much you guys love the Kremlin spambots.

So, let's please discuss this fucking wild take from a Putin parrot so notorious for Russian propaganda that he's been calling bullshit on the American war machine since Vietnam:

Seymour Hersh.

Responding to reports in recent weeks that Ukrainian forces were gaining momentum and recapturing territory, the official remarked, “Where are the reporters getting this stuff?” he asked. “There are stories talking about drunk Russian commanders while the Ukrainians are penetrating the three lines of Russian defense and will be able to work back to Mariupol.”

He continued, “The goal of Russia’s first line of defense was not to stop the Ukrainian offense, but to slow it down so if there was a Ukrainian advance, Russian commanders could bring in reserves to fortify the line.” The official added, “There is no evidence that Ukrainian forces have gotten past the first line. The American press is doing anything but honest reporting on the failure thus far of the offense.”

Secretary of State Antony Blinken delivered a similarly optimistic message during his trip to Kyiv on Wednesday. “In the ongoing counteroffensive, progress has accelerated in the past few weeks. This new assistance will help sustain it and build further momentum,” he said at a press conference.

The official says that message is being delivered from military intelligence to the White House, while the CIA has drawn other conclusions. “This kind of reporting from the military intelligence community is going to the White House. There are other views,” he said, referring to the CIA. The official explained those views do not reach President Joe Biden.

For over three months, Kyiv has ordered its forces to advance on entrench Russian defensive lines in southern Ukraine. Russian minefields caused Ukraine to lose a significant portion of its Western-trained soldiers and equipment in the opening weeks of the offensive. The massive push by Ukraine resulted in nearly no territorial gains.

Still, Washington has pushed Kyiv to continue the counteroffensive. The White House acknowledges that for Ukraine to have a possibility of success, Kyiv will have to be willing to sustain high casualties.

The official told Hersh no matter how committed Kyiv is to the war effort, President Zelensky’s goals are unattainable. “Zelensky will never get his land back,” he said.

The official also spoke about the assassination of Prigozhin last month. He believes that Putin ordered the killing because the mercenary boss had begun to provoke NATO members. “By early August, there were reports of border tensions as the remnant of the Wagner Group made a series of intrusions into the airspace of Poland, and troublesome threats at the borders of Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, and Finland,” Hersh writes, “For Putin, triggering complaints from NATO countries was an unforgivable breach. ‘That was it,’ a knowledgeable US intelligence official told me.”

https://news.antiwar.com/2023/09/07/us- ... d-success/

[ousdahl]

know what you guys?

forgive me for being such a smartass in this thread.

I admit I'm still butthurt about your repeated accusations of being a Putin supporter. Fuck that guy.

but, at least, the dialogue with Shirley last night helped.

now, with all that said - can you guys please help me understand exactly what Zelensky means by these comments in this interview with the Economist?



https://www.economist.com/europe/2023/0 ... r-zelensky

[ousdahl]

soo

please don't accuse me of being a Putin parrot, cuz fuck that guy, tho I'll prob get a lot of shit for this anyway

buuuuut....especially since even NATO officials have even hinted at as much lately...and a few months back even NYT suggested a "two-state" solution too...

is it worth discussing some peace deal for which Ukraine concedes territory to the east, in exchange for NATO membership to the west?

now, don't get me wrong, I don't wanna concede a thing to Russia either!

but, I DO wanna put an end to this war. I think that thee best thing for the Ukrainian people,* and the world at large, is a peace deal like ASAP...far, far more so than escalation and perpetuation for the sake of bickering over lines on a map - or for the sake of Raytheon stock.

and, I also think there's at least some concern that letting this drag out longer and longer may result in Russia just gaining control of more and more of Ukraine, anyway. Or, perhaps worse yet, may result in all-out WW3.

but I guess that also comes from the hunch that the best way to end war is not more war; that diplomacy is more likely to bring peace than is maintaining the course of yet another war with no end in sight.

now, for the sake of discussion, please at least consider as much, and avoid the urge to knee-jerk call me a Kremlin spambot again...






*okay okay, and the Russian people too. Fuck Putin and fuck the Russian war machine, but let's try to distinguish those fucks from all the people of Russia who are otherwise just good old fashioned people. It's tricky to distinguish, I know. But, let's face it: we consider the people of Russia to be nothing more than cannon fodder, even more so than the people of Ukraine. Besides, how could all this possibly be about people?! Not when all along this is more so about global markets and imperial cock measuring contests, duh!

[ousdahl]

Yea.

I’ll prob get shit for this, but I’m trying to understand Iran’s motivations, I kinda wondered if their narrative would be something like, “we’re trying to regain control of oil illegally taken by the US/NATO/“the west” from us/our middle eastern allies”

But that also presupposes the US militancy against and occupation of middle eastern countries is about anything but freedom and democracy.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/9/8 ... -this-year

[ousdahl]

Ukraine gummint dismisses its top 6 deputy defense ministers

No official reason given, but western media throwing around corruption as a possible explanation

[Sparko]

Getting corruption out of their DNA takes time. Goes back to Soviet times. Everything was achieved by deals. Ukraine is trying hard.