Let’s have a war!

[ousdahl]

Due to Trump's actions weakening of NATO, Putin really believed he could walk into Kyiv. The tepid response to the invasions of Georgia and Crimea did not help. There, the weak-kneed accommodationists put the "spheres of influence" Kissinger concepts into play. Lebensraum seems so reasonable if you don't want to defend people.

One might go so far as to say Putin panicked into invading Ukraine because, having lost the Puppet in Chief, he felt he had to strike before America was fully back to her senses.

I saw one take that pointed out, Putin's most aggressive moves to the west came in 2014 and 2022, when dems (and specifically Biden in one of the two top positions in the US government) were in control. Putin was comparatively docile when he had his spray tan puppet in charge.

But, I don't put much stock into that take either.

and regarding that "panic" term...oh, never mind. I know there's no longer a difference between objective discussion and bad guy propaganda.

[ousdahl]

Dead horse meet Ous.

wait

do you mean to suggest it's a bad idea to beat a dead horse no matter how long it takes?

[Sparko]

Russia purposely shot a hypersonic missile into a funeral party killing 51 in a small city in Kharkiv today.

[ousdahl]

It's awful.

And I almost posted more of a thought on it yet, but for now, let's just say - imagine hearing a story like that and thinking, "maybe the solution to such bombings is more bombs"

ok, fine, one more thought, cuz it sounds like yet another war crime, with even more casualties, albeit one none of you guys even care about:

somebody drone bombed a graduation ceremony in Syria today, killing at least 80. Officials there didn't name names, but did say it was the work of separatist fighters “backed by known international forces”

or heck, maybe the known international forces were Russia too. Now do you guys care?

[TDub]

https://youtu.be/n3htOCjafTc?si=sg2YWzwJq-2ypHqr

[ousdahl]

we’ve been round this circle before

all you say is more diplomacy

there are, quite literally, lunatics in this world for which diplomacy doesn’t work. there always have been, there always will be…people who commit crimes against humanity (or authorize as much)

these are people that can’t be reasoned with and who don’t value the rule of law

i’m really struggling with how difficult it seems for you to grasp this concept

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... e-support/

Since Russia invaded, Macron has drawn ire — and eye rolls — for clinging to the idea that Russian President Vladimir Putin could be talked down.

Now here he was, more than a year in, telling a crowd in Slovakia that Western Europe had failed to listen to the east on Russia and praising NATO, the alliance he once said was experiencing brain death.
...
Macron has long aspired to lead Europe, but he missed the moment on Ukraine, leaving the push to toughen up the Western alliance to Poland and the Baltic nations.

In the run-up to the full-scale invasion and the early days of the war, he outraged allies by continuing to talk to Putin. Afterward, when it came to weapons and money, he ceded leadership to U.S. officials and even Britain’s Boris Johnson.
...
Before February 2022, Macron was skeptical of adding members to the E.U., in part due to concerns about provoking Russia...

OuTrAgEd!!

[ousdahl]

https://youtu.be/n3htOCjafTc?si=sg2YWzwJq-2ypHqr

is the war over yet?

or more like, war over and over again?

[TDub]

[TDub]

also, there is a way to end this war but last time I asked about it you called me a miserable white piece of shit nazi.

So I think I'll leave now.

And gone.

[ousdahl]

Yea, I’ve since apologized.

Can we really talk ending the war here?

Objectively speaking, I think we’re headed for some sorta two-state solution, as the NYT opined a while back. Embrace the freedom-and-democracy-loving maidan proud boys in the western areas, and just let Putin’s dumb ass deal with the eastern separatist republics that didn’t wanna part of Ukraine anyway. For a while it worked for Germany post WW2, right?

Other options include Russia fully withdrawing and Ukraine doesn’t have to concede one inch. Ideal, tho I dunno how the people of eastern Ukraine feel about it…not that the people of the actually affected areas get any say. They should just accept that they're not people, just cannon fodder, and let some foreign imperial power decide their fate.

Another option is to stay the current course of just-a-little-but-not-too-much western support for Ukraine, which so far has netted territorial gains for Russia, until Russia might get all of Ukraine anyway. And then, domino theory, and Russia takes over all of Southeast Asia too.

Another yet is further escalation and perpetuation, even potentially sending in even more troops from even more nato countries, but I dunno how that’s not WW3. Who knows, maybe Japhy can finally get to enjoy the flash.

Another another yet is western leaders stop being OuTrAgEd!! at the thought of just talking it out like grownups are supposed to, and just talk it out. Heck, maybe they could even talk it out without also repeatedly calling Putin a “needledick bitch” to his face, though I realize the temptation would prob be too much.

Nah, fuck it.

Let’s Have A War!

Sell the rights to the networks! We could all use the money! Let our wallets get fat like last time!

(Remember when the most controversial thing in this thread was that cover by A Perfect Circle? Quainter times…)

[KUTradition]

we’ve been round this circle before

all you say is more diplomacy

there are, quite literally, lunatics in this world for which diplomacy doesn’t work. there always have been, there always will be…people who commit crimes against humanity (or authorize as much)

these are people that can’t be reasoned with and who don’t value the rule of law

i’m really struggling with how difficult it seems for you to grasp this concept

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/20 ... e-support/

Since Russia invaded, Macron has drawn ire — and eye rolls — for clinging to the idea that Russian President Vladimir Putin could be talked down.

Now here he was, more than a year in, telling a crowd in Slovakia that Western Europe had failed to listen to the east on Russia and praising NATO, the alliance he once said was experiencing brain death.
...
Macron has long aspired to lead Europe, but he missed the moment on Ukraine, leaving the push to toughen up the Western alliance to Poland and the Baltic nations.

In the run-up to the full-scale invasion and the early days of the war, he outraged allies by continuing to talk to Putin. Afterward, when it came to weapons and money, he ceded leadership to U.S. officials and even Britain’s Boris Johnson.
...
Before February 2022, Macron was skeptical of adding members to the E.U., in part due to concerns about provoking Russia...

OuTrAgEd!!

i’ll ask again, have you actually read the treaty drafts?

or do you just prefer ill-informed tantrums?

[ousdahl]

I haven’t read the entire drafts word for word, no.

But I at least read the part about how Putin wants to demilitarize not just nato in Ukraine, but nato in most/all of the Eastern European areas that are on his doorstep.

Do you think that’s a bad idea?

Oh, and speaking of fish’s ideal about not one inch…

Is there something more about the treaty drafts I missed that you’d like to discuss?

[jfish26]

But I at least read the part about how Putin wants to demilitarize not just nato in Ukraine, but nato in most/all of the Eastern European areas that are on his doorstep.

Do you think that’s a bad idea?

“[the rustling of a light breeze]”

- tens of thousands of Ukrainians who were alive two years ago

[KUTradition]

i would say that someone needs to learn about the UN charter and Helsinki Final Act, but i doubt it would do any good

[ousdahl]

You know what REALLY doesn’t do any good?

Condescendingly throwing out historical buzzwords without actually articulating a thing about them.

But when you’re so stubbornly clinging to such hawkish world views, and ignoring anything but, I guess it’s the only move you got.

(Btw I’m assuming you’re repeatedly avoiding an answer to my question about demilitarizing nato, cuz you realize the escalation and perpetuation of nato militarism is hawkish and you just don’t wanna admit it, but feel free to correct me)

[ousdahl]

But I at least read the part about how Putin wants to demilitarize not just nato in Ukraine, but nato in most/all of the Eastern European areas that are on his doorstep.

Do you think that’s a bad idea?

“[the rustling of a light breeze]”

- tens of thousands of Ukrainians who were alive two years ago

It’s awful!

But know what’s even more awful?

Thinking the solution to all this fighting is more fighting.

For that matter, there were tens of thousands more Ukrainians who alive ten years ago, before NATO staged a right wing coup and flooded the place with weapons, yet you didn’t give a shit about them, I guess cuz the war machine propaganda didn’t tell you to yet.

[ousdahl]

And, speaking of nato, apparently US forces shot down a Turkish drone that flew a little too close to US troops in Syria.

Now, I know we’re not even gonna question why the fuck there’s US forces in Syria, much less Turkish, and certainly won’t see any #StandWithSyria campaigns.

But, considering Turkey is a NATO country, what if they invoke article 5?

[KUTradition]

But I at least read the part about how Putin wants to demilitarize not just nato in Ukraine, but nato in most/all of the Eastern European areas that are on his doorstep.

Do you think that’s a bad idea?

“[the rustling of a light breeze]”

- tens of thousands of Ukrainians who were alive two years ago

It’s awful!

But know what’s even more awful?

Thinking the solution to all this fighting is more fighting.

For that matter, there were tens of thousands more Ukrainians who alive ten years ago, before NATO staged a right wing coup and flooded the place with weapons, yet you didn’t give a shit about them, I guess cuz the war machine propaganda didn’t tell you to yet.

fuck off, seriously

did you give a fuck about Ukraine in 2014? or Georgia in 2008?

your lack of appreciation for, or knowledge of, history in that part of the world makes you look like a clown

but don’t let that stop you…

[KUTradition]

those who don’t learn from history are doomed to repeat it

[jfish26]

But I at least read the part about how Putin wants to demilitarize not just nato in Ukraine, but nato in most/all of the Eastern European areas that are on his doorstep.

Do you think that’s a bad idea?

“[the rustling of a light breeze]”

- tens of thousands of Ukrainians who were alive two years ago

It’s awful!

But know what’s even more awful?

Thinking the solution to all this fighting is more fighting.

For that matter, there were tens of thousands more Ukrainians who alive ten years ago, before NATO staged a right wing coup and flooded the place with weapons, yet you didn’t give a shit about them, I guess cuz the war machine propaganda didn’t tell you to yet.

The ONLY relevant person who thinks the solution to all this fighting is more fighting, is Putin. The fighting would stop if Putin would simply leave Ukraine.