Israel/Palestine

[ousdahl]

The only way we're going to keep this war from escalating is to escalate it?

Go lay down on your fainting couch, dear.

I mean this as matter-of-factly as possible when I say, this is so much of what Qusdahl’s tried to say all along. Like practically verbatim.

[jfish26]

There’s also the radicalization concern; displace hundreds of thousands (or more) by razing Gaza City…and you’re creating a hell of a lot more enemies out of people who are presently children.

Again, sorry for causing such a fuss.

I promise I’m gonna try to play nice, and avoid personal attacks, or anything (hopefully) too controversial.

With that said…


I think your point here is extremely relevant.


Now realize this displacement issue has been going on for a lot longer than “presently.”



Or, if this map is inaccurate, please do correct me.


(ducks)

I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue that this issue is new.

[Sparko]

Now the Russian tentacles are coming out. Hamas met with Lavrov in Moscow. And Hawley wants to deprive Ukraine of aid because of Israel. So.

[RainbowsandUnicorns]

I just read this. I don't know the validity and I don't when Khalid Mashal allegedly gave the speech.

Khalid Mashal the leader and founding member of Hamas gave a speech today asking Muslims all around the world to do the following:

1. To show anger, especially next Friday, in Muslim countries and Also among Muslim diaspora around the world; he called it “the Friday of Al-Aqsa flood”, he said this will send a message of rage to Zionists and to America

2. He asked for financial help from all Muslims around the world; to help with their money, he called it “Financial Jihad”. He asked Muslims to give to the fighters of Gaza in order to compensate them for the destruction

3.He asked political pressure, from Muslim leaders and Muslim nations, to stop Israel’s military invasion of Gaza

4.The most important thing: He asked all Muslims around the world to carry Jihad by their souls; to fight and be martyrs for Al-Aqsa.
He wants Muslims to fight against the Jews, starting with Muslims who live in the countries surrounding Israel: Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, and Egypt (but also other countries), to go to the borders and try to enter, each by his own means. He said: This is the time for Jihad to be applied on the ground rather than just in theory. He asked the Mujahedeen to go in long caravans to spell their blood on the land of Palestine.

These are his final words:

Funds are important but today we are asking for your blood and souls [to be sacrificed for Palestine]

[jfish26]

Now the Russian tentacles are coming out. Hamas met with Lavrov in Moscow. And Hawley wants to deprive Ukraine of aid because of Israel. So.

It would seem to me that, as the picture clears, a stepwise (and justified, even belated) response may well be to provide ATACMS and other next-step materials to Ukraine. If Russia is, at a minimum, complicit with Hamas (in an effort to stretch Ukraine support thin), then a proportional response is to make our Ukraine support more potent.

[DCHawk1]

There’s also the radicalization concern; displace hundreds of thousands (or more) by razing Gaza City…and you’re creating a hell of a lot more enemies out of people who are presently children.

Again, sorry for causing such a fuss.

I promise I’m gonna try to play nice, and avoid personal attacks, or anything (hopefully) too controversial.

With that said…


I think your point here is extremely relevant.


Now realize this displacement issue has been going on for a lot longer than “presently.”



Or, if this map is inaccurate, please do correct me.


(ducks)

It's worse than inaccurate. It's propaganda.

There was no "Palestine" in 1947. Indeed, there has NEVER been a country called "Palestine."

In 1947, there was a British Mandate, and its population was almost half Jewish.

[DCHawk1]

Also worth noting:

The Arabs explicitly rejected the Partition Plan in slide 2 and instead launched a war against Israel, resulting in slide 3.

Further losses of land (side 4) occurred, again, after war -- war started by the Arab states and won by Israel.

Finally, there are no "Palestinian" people. They are ethnically Arab and culturally Jordanian.

[ousdahl]

Thanks for the distinctions.

For the sake of this thread tho, and the part no one seems to be saying out loud: the issue seems like one of settler colonialism?

Whether “Palestinian” or “ethnically Arab and culturally Jordanian” or however we can call these people, these people have been systemically displaced by Zionists (often violently?)

In that regard, and without dismissing the maps on some “there has never been a country called Palestine” sort of technicality, is there some accuracy to the maps, in the way they indicate the movement and displacement of these populations?

Or is that too just more propaganda?

Cuz if it’s not, then dismissing all that on such a technically seems like a “but there never officially WAS a Cherokee nation” sorta argument, as if the heart of the issue with things like the Trail Of Tears was something, anything, besides violent colonial displacement.

[Overlander]

Also worth noting:

The Arabs explicitly rejected the Partition Plan in slide 2 and instead launched a war against Israel, resulting in slide 3.

Further losses of land (side 4) occurred, again, after war -- war started by the Arab states and won by Israel.

Finally, there are no "Palestinian" people. They are ethnically Arab and culturally Jordanian.

Thanks for the explanation DC.

[KUTradition]

i think there are quite a few people, Israelis included, that would disagree with DC’s last statement, regardless of whether or not there has ever been an official “Palestine” nation-state

[DCHawk1]

For the sake of this thread tho, and the part no one seems to be saying out loud: the issue seems like one of settler colonialism?

No. I mean...unless you're talking about settler colonialism by people who have inhabited that region continuously for 4000 years, which is a weird definition. Also, do you know why the entire region -- formerly Berber -- is Arab today?

FYI, regurgitating anti-realist academic jargon doesn't make you educated.

Whether “Palestinian” or “ethnically Arab and culturally Jordanian” or however we can call these people, these people have been systemically displaced by Zionists (often violently?)

You ever wonder what happened to the Jewish settlements throughout the Middle East? Or...you know, how many Jews have ever been on the Supreme Court of, say, Syria?

In that regard, and without dismissing the maps on some “there has never been a country called Palestine” sort of technicality, is there some accuracy to the maps, in the way they indicate the movement and displacement of these populations?

'Technicality.' LOL. I think you mean "reality." Also, as I explained, the land-loss depicted in that map was entirely the result of failed Arab wars against Israel. Talk to Nasser, if you have a problem with it.

Or is that too just more propaganda?

Yes?

Cuz if it’s not, then dismissing all that on such a technically seems like a “but there never officially WAS a Cherokee nation” sorta argument, as if the heart of the issue with things like the Trail Of Tears was something, anything, besides violent colonial displacement.

My heavens.

I'll ask again: why do you suppose there are "refugee camps" now, 75 years later?

[DCHawk1]

i think there are quite a few people, Israelis included, that would disagree with DC’s last statement, regardless of whether or not there has ever been an official “Palestine” nation-state

It's a factual statement. Disagree all you want, but "Palestinian" is a term that was created specifically for propaganda purposes.

[KUTradition]

i think there are quite a few people, Israelis included, that would disagree with DC’s last statement, regardless of whether or not there has ever been an official “Palestine” nation-state

It's a factual statement. Disagree all you want, but "Palestinian" is a term that was created specifically for propaganda purposes.

take it up with the rest of the world

[KUTradition]

i also wonder how syrians who identify as palestinian would feel about being labeled culturally jordanian

[jfish26]

i also wonder how syrians who identify as palestinian would feel about being labeled culturally jordanian

Take it to the pronouns thread.

[DCHawk1]

i think there are quite a few people, Israelis included, that would disagree with DC’s last statement, regardless of whether or not there has ever been an official “Palestine” nation-state

It's a factual statement. Disagree all you want, but "Palestinian" is a term that was created specifically for propaganda purposes.

take it up with the rest of the world

You have a link to its unified opinion?

Also, it's not my fault that the British Mandate was the entire "Hashemite Kingdom," (i.e. historical Jordan) and the Brits decided to divide it in two strictly for the purposes of administration.

[KUTradition]

eh…the UN seems as good a proxy as any

[DCHawk1]

eh…the UN seems as good a proxy as any

The radically anti-Israel, anti-Semitic UN?

That one?

[Sparko]

Transjordan. That must really screw with MAGA minds.

[KUTradition]

eh…the UN seems as good a proxy as any

The radically anti-Israel, anti-Semitic UN?

That one?

if you’d like, i’m happy to post any number of Jewish-based, pro-Israel sites that support the notion of a palestinian people…even going so far as to argue that the denial of their existence is a direct assault to Israel’s security and any sort of long-term peace in the region