Israel/Palestine

[DCHawk1]

eh…the UN seems as good a proxy as any

The radically anti-Israel, anti-Semitic UN?

That one?

if you’d like, i’m happy to post any number of Jewish-based, pro-Israel sites that support the notion of a palestinian people…even going so far as to argue that the denial of their existence is a direct assault to Israel’s security and any sort of long-term peace in the region

Why would I care?

You are correct when you say the "notion of a Palestinian people." It is exactly that, a "notion." It may be a useful notion, and it's probably the case that the circumstances of the last 75 years have created a unique and specific Palestinian identity. But none of that changes the historical reality. This is an identity that was created and has been cultivated for a purpose.

[KUTradition]

palestinian identity goes back hundreds of years…to at least the 1600s according to some

and that’s the last i’ll say. i’m done going round this circle. you’ve got a narrative to push, so you do you

[DCHawk1]

palestinian identity goes back hundreds of years…to at least the 1600s according to some

and that’s the last i’ll say. i’m done going round this circle. you’ve got a narrative to push, so you do you

Oh, goodie.

And "according to some" it still doesn't exist now.

I tend to think that Islamist scholar (and Obama pal) Rashid Khalidi, who literally wrote the fucking book on Palestinian identity (Palestinian Identity: The Construction of Modern National Consciousness, has it more right than wrong when he says that it is inarguably a "modern" construction.

But then, you're done going round this circle you created specifically because you wanted desperately for me to be wrong, so...pretend what you want about narratives.

[KUTradition]

*thumbs up*

[DCHawk1]

GJGP

[twocoach]

My heart hurts for all innocent victims in this conflict. I cannot imagine living with that all around you, worrying every day if you were going to be killed. It's just a horribly sad situation all around with no right answers.

Don't rape, torture, terrorize and kill people. This shouldn't be complicated.

[KUTradition]

and yet, a few hundred thousand years seems to have proven how complicated we make it

[mjl2]

There’s also the radicalization concern; displace hundreds of thousands (or more) by razing Gaza City…and you’re creating a hell of a lot more enemies out of people who are presently children.

Again, sorry for causing such a fuss.

I promise I’m gonna try to play nice, and avoid personal attacks, or anything (hopefully) too controversial.

With that said…


I think your point here is extremely relevant.


Now realize this displacement issue has been going on for a lot longer than “presently.”



Or, if this map is inaccurate, please do correct me.


(ducks)

I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue that this issue is new.

But that map is the biggest piece of bullshit I have ever seen. It's just a blatant lie on many levels that I have already explained here but that piece of shit does what he always does.

Say something completely false.
Someone explains in detail why it is false.
He ignores it.
Then he repeats the lie.

What a piece of shit. Awful human, thinks people should do nothing when attacked. Needs to be put in his fucking place.

[mjl2]

eh…the UN seems as good a proxy as any

The radically anti-Israel, anti-Semitic UN?

That one?

if you’d like, i’m happy to post any number of Jewish-based, pro-Israel sites that support the notion of a palestinian people…even going so far as to argue that the denial of their existence is a direct assault to Israel’s security and any sort of long-term peace in the region

Technically DC is right.
Jews were considered Palestinians too because they were living in that territory.
Arafat co-opted the term in the 60s to describe Arabs who live in that territory.

Personally I don't really care and use terms like Palestinian and West Bank. I don't care what they're called, I want them to take responsibility for themselves and seek peace. They've had some really bad shit happen to them. So did many, many groups of people.

[mjl2]

Last time was Gaza. Israel made all their citizens leave. In response, rocket fire actually increased. Then Hamas came and killed (literally) the PLO/PA leadership there and took over. That's why Egypt (who somehow never gets criticism here) and Israel blockade them.

No, Israel has never taken land, in the current context, from the Palestinians. I mean, if the Palestinians (which is not what they were called at the time), who never had their own country, accepted the UN plan in 1947, that'd be one thing. But they rejected it and tried to wipe out the Jews in "Palestina EY" instead. So it was never their land because they never agreed to it, unlike Israel.

The West Bank and East Jerusalem were part of Jordan, and Gaza was part of Egypt from 1949-1967. Those countries did not give the Palestinians their own state.

In 1967 when the cease fire (not peace) was signed, Israel had control of the West Bank from Jordan, and Gaza and Sinai from Egypt. Eventually they gave back Sinai to Egypt in return for peace. They destroyed all the Israeli settler homes their and made them leave. In return, they had peace with Egypt, and it has held ever since. Egypt didn't want Gaza back. Israel later signed peace with Jordan - who had no desire to take back the West Bank as part of that deal.

This is why, when we were young, if you saw a map of Israel, it would have included the West Bank and Gaza. Israel worked with the PLO (now PA) to transfer the most populated areas of the West Bank to the Palestinians. Those are the areas now known as Area A and Area B, which have PA control (and which Jews are not even allowed in because they wouldn't be safe).

Israel pulled out of Gaza, and it was a disaster. This, amongst several other reasons (mostly the non-adherence to peace agreements by both sides) led to Israel halting the pull-out of the West Bank, so the least-populated part (Area C) and East Jerusalem are still Israeli controlled. That's where the settlements are. They were never a part of a Palestinian nation. I, and most Israelis, would like to see Israel eventually pull out of there.

tl;dr - no, Israel hasn't been taking land, it has been giving it up for peace.

[mjl2]

So to the ones (other than Mao) who think Israel should not invade Gaza - what should Israel do?

I don't have an answer. But I don't think that what Hamas has been doing through the years and what happened this week can just be ignored.

[KUTradition]

The radically anti-Israel, anti-Semitic UN?

That one?

if you’d like, i’m happy to post any number of Jewish-based, pro-Israel sites that support the notion of a palestinian people…even going so far as to argue that the denial of their existence is a direct assault to Israel’s security and any sort of long-term peace in the region

Technically DC is right.
Jews were considered Palestinians too because they were living in that territory.
Arafat co-opted the term in the 60s to describe Arabs who live in that territory.

Personally I don't really care and use terms like Palestinian and West Bank. I don't care what they're called, I want them to take responsibility for themselves and seek peace. They've had some really bad shit happen to them. So did many, many groups of people.

i think that narrative is dangerous, and doesn’t serve the goal of long-term peace…presuming that is, in fact, the goal

continuing to tell some 8 million people that their identity is a farce will only see us continue down this same road

edit: and i’m not even necessarily advocating for a 2-state solution. reports i’ve read indicate that a majority of Palestinians living and working in Israel (i think, but it may just be Jerusalem) have no issue being Israeli citizens. there were also reports of positive change in Gaza prior to this hamas shit storm, with Israeli businesses starting to flourish. my only point being that peace seems a possibility without invalidating Palestinians

i know this is a sensitive subject, and the last thing i want is to offend

[DCHawk1]

https://twitter.com/AmySpiro/status/1712216694574166290

Biden says he took each of his kids to visit the Dachau concentration camp when they turned 14.

"I wanted them to see!" he says, slamming his hand down and shouting. "That you could not not know what was going on."

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I was 9 when my parents took me to Dachau (about a week after taking me to Anne Frank House). "Formative" doesn't even begin to describe the experience(s).

[DCHawk1]

i think that narrative is dangerous, and doesn’t serve the goal of long-term peace…presuming that is, in fact, the goal

continuing to tell some 8 million people that their identity is a farce will only see us continue down this same road

edit: and i’m not even necessarily advocating for a 2-state solution. reports i’ve read indicate that a majority of Palestinians living and working in Israel (i think, but it may just be Jerusalem) have no issue being Israeli citizens. there were also reports of positive change in Gaza prior to this hamas shit storm, with Israeli businesses starting to flourish. my only point being that peace seems a possibility without invalidating Palestinians

i know this is a sensitive subject, and the last thing i want is to offend

I think you're mirror-imaging here, assuming things that are likely not true because that's how you (and other Westerners) would think about them.

Much of the formative history of this conflict took place against the backdrop of Pan-Arabism, the era of the proposed Hashemite union and the reality of the United Arab Republic. Moreover, most Arabs traditionally identify in religious, rather than nationalistic terms.

Additionally, no one (at least here) has called their identity a "farce." I said the "nationality" didn't exist -- at least in the way we'd use the term. That's a fact, not a farce.

[DCHawk1]

Well...at least we know where Q gets his news...

[KUTradition]

i think that narrative is dangerous, and doesn’t serve the goal of long-term peace…presuming that is, in fact, the goal

continuing to tell some 8 million people that their identity is a farce will only see us continue down this same road

edit: and i’m not even necessarily advocating for a 2-state solution. reports i’ve read indicate that a majority of Palestinians living and working in Israel (i think, but it may just be Jerusalem) have no issue being Israeli citizens. there were also reports of positive change in Gaza prior to this hamas shit storm, with Israeli businesses starting to flourish. my only point being that peace seems a possibility without invalidating Palestinians

i know this is a sensitive subject, and the last thing i want is to offend

I think you're mirror-imaging here, assuming things that are likely not true because that's how you (and other Westerners) would think about them.

Much of the formative history of this conflict took place against the backdrop of Pan-Arabism, the era of the proposed Hashemite union and the reality of the United Arab Republic. Moreover, most Arabs traditionally identify in religious, rather than nationalistic terms.

Additionally, no one (at least here) has called their identity a "farce." I said the "nationality" didn't exist -- at least in the way we'd use the term. That's a fact, not a farce.

no, that’s not what you said

but whatever

[DCHawk1]

I wrote: "There are no Palestinian people. They are ethnically Arab and culturally Jordanian."

If you read anything into that other than that the "Palestinian" nationality does not exist, then that's on you.

But since we know that your entire purpose was to try, so achingly, to discredit me, that shouldn't come as a surprise.

[KUTradition]

cool story

[DCHawk1]

IKR?

[ousdahl]