F the NCAA

[AlOerter]

A lot of people around the country feel differently than we do about the punishment - they think we skated with a slap on the wrist.

https://ftw.usatoday.com/lists/kansas-b ... ns-vacated

The wins, and streaks and banners mean a lot more to us and to the program than those folks realize.

[japhy]

Meh, it's only a big deal in those places that envy the Jayhawk's success. Two years from now, those will be the only fans that even remember this.

Two years and we pass UK in total wins again, get another Final Four this year and no one will care.

[Back2Lawrence]

For Self and Goff to say coaches had no knowledge of payment is lol.

I mean, maybe it’s true, but that chance seems exceptional slim.

[Sparko]

I think Self thought that the NCAA had reason to clear Silvio. The pisser is that Duke UK and UNC crossed the lines publically.

[Sparko]

I don't see why the NCAA can punish a school for the the NCAA:s eligibility decision. That is grounds for appeal IMHO, because it levies sanctions for something the NCAA was responsible for. I get not being able to appeal institutional issues, but this one was clearly an NCAA self own

1) the IRP isn't the NCAA
2) Their rulings cannot be appealed

The IRP was the NCAA's arbitrator. And I doubt KU agreed to be sanctioned for actions undertaken by the NCAA. Everything is appealable if findings of fact are in error. In real court.

[twocoach]

A lot of people around the country feel differently than we do about the punishment - they think we skated with a slap on the wrist.

https://ftw.usatoday.com/lists/kansas-b ... ns-vacated

The wins, and streaks and banners mean a lot more to us and to the program than those folks realize.

There are always more fans cheering against a great team than for a great team so obviously there are a lot of people who think KU got off light. It's to be expected. Tough shit.

The wins and streaks and Final Four all happened. Nothing changes that. Whether they are recognized by an organization that will be completely out of the picture in the near future is irrelevant.

[DCHawk1]

I think Louisville left but their 2013 banner

They raised a banner that said 2013 Final Coaches Poll #1.
Basically we could raise a banner for 2020 like that too.

Don't take 2018 off the Final Four banner.
See what the NCAA does.

Make 'em come get it.

They fucked up.

[pdub]

Bill said he agrees that those wins should be taken and the banner come down.

My guess is that back door agreements were made to be civil and cooperative and the investigation would be over. He doesn’t agree they should come down…but his ( and KUs ) narrative almost insists that they should…because we had no idea any of this was happening!

[hoopla]

sorry, pdub, i don't follow. come again - we had no idea so the banners must come down?

[RainbowsandUnicorns]

“I actually did feel like it was fair and I actually felt like it should have been done by the rule,” Self said. “We had a player participate while ineligible due to an illicit payment that we knew nothing about, but he (De Sousa) was still ineligible while participating.”

* TIME OUT! What am I not understanding?
A) Wasn't De Sousa deemed eligible by the NCAA? So then how was he "ineligible" when he played?
B) I call BULLSHIT on Self's claim he didn't know about the payment.


“So the 15 wins that occurred while Silvio participated in the 2018 spring semester — he didn’t play in 2017 — I believe are warranted to be taken away, because that is the rule,” Self said. “If you take away the wins, you naturally take away a banner, because the banner wouldn’t have existed without the wins.”

* Can't argue with that. Can you/we?


“Today is a good day for Kansas basketball,” Self said, “and the findings the panel found reiterated our staff acted with integrity and honesty and had no knowledge of payments to student-athletes.

* I wouldn't say it was a "good" day. I might say it was a better day than it could (should?) have been.
I also wouldn't say it "reiterated" the staff "acted with integrity and honesty and had no knowledge of payments to student-athletes".
Bad analogy but an example of a university feeling a coach having "no knowledge" was worthy of dismissal, Pat Fitzgerald was fired from Northwestern for having "no knowledge" of something that happened in his program.
I'm not saying I feel Self should be fired because I don't feel he should be, but I do feel him having "no knowledge" isn't something he should take pride in. I also feel it's a blatant lie.

Read more at: https://www.kansascity.com/sports/colle ... rylink=cpy

[pdub]

sorry, pdub, i don't follow. come again - we had no idea so the banners must come down?

We have to agree that the player was ineligible — he was taking money from Adidas — so we also have to agree the wins weren’t legit. We didn’t know ( wink wink ) but the rules are the rules so I guess the banner must come down.

[pdub]

“So the 15 wins that occurred while Silvio participated in the 2018 spring semester — he didn’t play in 2017 — I believe are warranted to be taken away, because that is the rule,” Self said. “If you take away the wins, you naturally take away a banner, because the banner wouldn’t have existed without the wins.”

* Can't argue with that. Can you/we?

We can’t argue with the players ineligibility nor his participation in the games while ineligible….

…but we can argue with the punishment because the NCAA ( and it’s “independent” ruling committee ) has no semblance of equal justice.

If other programs, ie UNC, Duke, Kentucky, were given equal scrutiny, they’d be giving away all sorts of banners. On the other hand, if other programs, like OSU, were given equal judgement, they wouldn’t have gotten a post season ban.

Bye 2005 National Title ( and likely 2009 ):

https://www.espn.com/espn/otl/story/_/i ... am-classes

Bye 2012 National Title:

https://kykernel.com/6623/sports/former ... -kentucky/

Bye 32 wins and an E8:

https://www.si.com/college/2019/08/15/m ... o-langford

Bye the season before that ( did anyone play in that e8 game opposite Nova?!? ):

https://www.yahoo.com/news/report-marvi ... 36661.html

[Back2Lawrence]

KU got off easy for what happened when it happened. KU knows that, hence the talking out of both sides of the mouth.

And the well other kids did this so they should be punished too is typical homer shit I’d expect to read here (or any fan board).

All in all, as KU fans, we should be breathing a sigh of relief nothing actually substantial was brought down.

Also: won’t catching UK be fun again?

[AlOerter]

The wins and streaks and Final Four all happened. Nothing changes that. Whether they are recognized by an organization that will be completely out of the picture in the near future is irrelevant.

This. The rest can pretend they didn't happen but there is video and eye-witnesses that say otherwise.

The NCAA did approve him to play and then penalized us for playing him.

They didn't want to punish current players, yet they punish all the players who had part in those wins and final four appearance.

[MICHHAWK]

i am glad it is over.

[twocoach]

i am glad it is over.

Agreed. Onward.

[Sparko]

Flyover penalties. See KU, MU, and OSU. Louisville. Memphis. A pattern of inequitable justice geographically. A good day for us is when they try to ruin the brand.

[jfish26]

I don't put a lot of weight into anything Self and Goff are saying publicly, because it is very very clear that they are wanting to put their heads down and move forward. Losing only what we did - the wins and what came along with them - is a net win.

However, in the same way that I'm not on the fucking team so do not need to be chided about "overlooking" Directional Louisiana in the first round, nor do I need to gobble up Self's PR-speak as the complete truth.

In my opinion, what happened here was very wrong.

It was wrong for taxpayer dollars to be used to enforce the NCAA rulebook.

It was wrong for the NCAA to use evidence produced in a criminal trial as justification to punish, for administrative rules violations, schools/coaches that were not parties to that trial.

It was wrong for the NCAA to put us through six years of shit (and ultimately wipe out meaningful records) while other similarly-situated schools and coaches went untouched.

It was wrong for the NCAA to clear SDS twice, and then make it our problem that they - the investigators - did a shitty investigating job.

And most fundamentally, it is wrong for US (fans) to be punished for the NCAA's (and KU's) original sin here, which is creating, refining, protecting and defending a system that, by its very nature, was not just exposed to bad behavior (like middlemen and hangers-on profiting off kids), but designed to inevitably cause it.

[pdub]

"It was wrong for taxpayer dollars to be used to enforce the NCAA rulebook."

Yea.

"It was wrong for the NCAA to use evidence produced in a criminal trial as justification to punish, for administrative rules violations, schools/coaches that were not parties to that trial."

Eh. If it led to more info they didn't have, and the NCAA had a history of even regulation, then I disagree.

"It was wrong for the NCAA to put us through six years of shit (and ultimately wipe out meaningful records) while other similarly-situated schools and coaches went untouched."

Preach.

"It was wrong for the NCAA to clear SDS twice, and then make it our problem that they - the investigators - did a shitty investigating job."

I'm torn on this. I think the NCAA did their best with limited power to rule whether he was eligible. Then more info came to light. If they had set guidelines on what they do in a circumstance like this before hand and followed those, I wouldn't have an issue with it. But they're all willy nilly.

"And most fundamentally, it is wrong for US (fans) to be punished for the NCAA's (and KU's) original sin here, which is creating, refining, protecting and defending a system that, by its very nature, was not just exposed to bad behavior (like middlemen and hangers-on profiting off kids), but designed to inevitably cause it."

Kind of on bored depending on your definition of 'system'.

The NCAA completely gobbled up money like gremlins ( do gremlins gobble money ) and didn't practice what they preached. So that system sucked donkey balls. And they were clearly hypocrites.

But when you say by its very nature, if you mean it's true intention/implication that at it's root it couldn't work, then nah fam, it could, and it likely did for a while ( the NCAA was established before WWI ). Amateur athletics can, have and do work and exist at many levels.

[jfish26]

"It was wrong for taxpayer dollars to be used to enforce the NCAA rulebook."

Yea.

"It was wrong for the NCAA to use evidence produced in a criminal trial as justification to punish, for administrative rules violations, schools/coaches that were not parties to that trial."

Eh. If it led to more info they didn't have, and the NCAA had a history of even regulation, then I disagree.

"It was wrong for the NCAA to put us through six years of shit (and ultimately wipe out meaningful records) while other similarly-situated schools and coaches went untouched."

Preach.

"It was wrong for the NCAA to clear SDS twice, and then make it our problem that they - the investigators - did a shitty investigating job."

I'm torn on this. I think the NCAA did their best with limited power to rule whether he was eligible. Then more info came to light. If they had set guidelines on what they do in a circumstance like this before hand and followed those, I wouldn't have an issue with it. But they're all willy nilly.

"And most fundamentally, it is wrong for US (fans) to be punished for the NCAA's (and KU's) original sin here, which is creating, refining, protecting and defending a system that, by its very nature, was not just exposed to bad behavior (like middlemen and hangers-on profiting off kids), but designed to inevitably cause it."

Kind of on bored depending on your definition of 'system'.

The NCAA completely gobbled up money like gremlins ( do gremlins gobble money ) and didn't practice what they preached. So that system sucked donkey balls. And they were clearly hypocrites.

But when you say by its very nature, if you mean it's true intention/implication that at it's root it couldn't work, then nah fam, it could, and it likely did for a while ( the NCAA was established before WWI ). Amateur athletics can, have and do work and exist at many levels.

On the last part - that’s fine. And it’s fine that we don’t agree on what college sports should be.

But the NCAA very gladly gobbled up all of the money and ancillary cool shit that came from it being quasi-professional sports, and stood idly by as the black market it created and tolerated became unmanageably big.

To iterate on Tark’s quote, the NCAA got so mad at the black market it created that it’s punishing Kansas years after abandoning the fig leaf of the black market in the first place.

I disagree with you, and think you’re silly. You disagree with me, and think I’m missing the point.

But what the NCAA is doing here serves neither logical argument. It is just…capricious and a raging at the dying of the light.