Israel/Palestine

[KUTradition]

you should extract yourself from this situation and find a group who are more on your level of morality

[ousdahl]

I don’t think Biden claimed to have seen pictures.

and if you don't think Biden claimed to have seen pictures, then why did he say, “I never really thought that I would see, have confirmed pictures of terrorists beheading children.”? And why did the White House subsequently clarify that neither he nor other U.S. officials see such pictures?

I have zero issue with Biden relying on claims made by a foreign leader’s spokesman, in the context of the claims being used by Biden as support for Biden’s rhetorical expression of support of that foreign leader.

dude, I mean this respectfully, when I say, this may or may not be some 2+2=5 kinda shit.

It seems like you are hunting, very very hard, to find ways to shove this situation through the Iraq/WMD narrative lens that you use to also discredit our support of Ukraine. But tell me if I’m off base there.

it's not even that hard, tho! Biden is literally among those same dipshits who derped us on WMDs in Iraq! That gaffe can and SHOULD be reason to question the credibility of the government's wartime narratives going forward.

[ousdahl]

you should extract yourself from this situation and find a group who are more on your level of morality

yea, I guess I should.

sigh.

ETA...wait...wut? Morality?! but didn't you hear mjl? I thought I was an evil lying holocaust-denier bitch?

[MICHHAWK]

for the record. i am 100% ok with israel wiping the palestines, and all of the middle east for that matter, off the face of the earth. in case you were wondering.

[ousdahl]

heads up you guys - whether you realize it or not, a lot of you are once again on team michhawk here.

[jfish26]

so by that logic, if Colin Powell circa 2003 came out with his claim of evidence of WMDs, and later that day the pentagon came out like, "actually we don't have that evidence," you'd keep doubling down on, "but there really MUST be WMDs in Iraq, cuz we've seen pretty much the same thing really

I don't deny Hamas attacked Israel! And it was awful, and don't mean to shrug it off one bit, as it should be condemned!

I just also don't deny that Israel has been absolutely fucking brutal to Palestine, and - like you yourself suggested, fish, as well as DC, even - the crimes-against-humanity sort of conditions the Israelis have subjected Palestinians to have very much contributed to the issue.

I think what concerns me, is the one-sidedness of the rhetoric, and the attitudes, and the Islamophobia, and the "but THEY started it" sort of good guy bad guy unilateral these-things-happen-in-a-vacuum sort of mindset (sound familiar?), which all seems to be getting pushed right now as justification for yet another war with no end in sight.

So, with all that said, let's ask: in light of the Hamas attack on Israel, how much and how long and how big of a militant Israeli response is appropriate? Should we just let this one too go on and on with no end in sight? Are you OK with the Israelis bombing family households* wiping Gaza off the face of the earth?



*that's the one instance that even mjl admitted to happening, but also is totally cool with it happening, and seems fine with normalizing it, on the "warning" pretense. As if warnings make war crimes OK. There's also New York Times reports that Israelis are also indiscriminately bombing hospitals, ambulances, markets, mosques, often without warning...but, as DC pointed out, since the NYT's sources on that one are in Gaza, I guess we can all assume it's just more pro-Putin propaganda or whatever.



At some point, you guys gotta realize, the only difference between me and you is, I struggle to pick and choose which war crimes are really war crimes, and which war crimes are actually are no big deal.

This is precisely what I meant by my last post above this one.

The evidentiary bar for the US expressing support for Israel is simply not anywhere close to as high as the evidentiary bar that the US should clear for putting boots on the ground in armed conflict.

But you’re treating these two things like they’re the same.

[KUTradition]

if you look around the room and everyone else is broken, maybe you’re the one that’s actually broken

[jfish26]

I don’t think Biden claimed to have seen pictures.

and if you don't think Biden claimed to have seen pictures, then why did he say, “I never really thought that I would see, have confirmed pictures of terrorists beheading children.”? And why did the White House subsequently clarify that neither he nor other U.S. officials see such pictures?

I have zero issue with Biden relying on claims made by a foreign leader’s spokesman, in the context of the claims being used by Biden as support for Biden’s rhetorical expression of support of that foreign leader.

dude, I mean this respectfully, when I say, this may or may not be some 2+2=5 kinda shit.

It seems like you are hunting, very very hard, to find ways to shove this situation through the Iraq/WMD narrative lens that you use to also discredit our support of Ukraine. But tell me if I’m off base there.

it's not even that hard, tho! Biden is literally among those same dipshits who derped us on WMDs in Iraq! That gaffe can and SHOULD be reason to question the credibility of the government's wartime narratives going forward.

YMMV I guess. I interpreted Biden’s “see” comment to mean something more like “live to see”.

But in any case, my overall point is still the more important one: the very fact that this is muddying up the discussion is very very very much playing into Hamas’ and its backers’ hands. The ambiguity, the “well BOTH sides are to blame here” is the POINT.

[MICHHAWK]

it's un-American to not wish for the middle east to fall off the face of the earth. are you un-American.

[ousdahl]

if you look around the room and everyone else is broken, maybe you’re the one that’s actually broken

do you mean to say mich is NOT broken?

[DCHawk1]

Oh my. Stay for the end.

https://x.com/kanekoathegreat/status/17 ... q_-8Yt1KMA

This thread in a nutshell.

Just because you don't know much about the issue doesn't mean both sides are equal

Yup

[jfish26]

if you look around the room and everyone else is broken, maybe you’re the one that’s actually broken

do you mean to say mich is NOT broken?

There are very broken people on both sides.

[ousdahl]

I don’t think Biden claimed to have seen pictures.

and if you don't think Biden claimed to have seen pictures, then why did he say, “I never really thought that I would see, have confirmed pictures of terrorists beheading children.”? And why did the White House subsequently clarify that neither he nor other U.S. officials see such pictures?

I have zero issue with Biden relying on claims made by a foreign leader’s spokesman, in the context of the claims being used by Biden as support for Biden’s rhetorical expression of support of that foreign leader.

dude, I mean this respectfully, when I say, this may or may not be some 2+2=5 kinda shit.

It seems like you are hunting, very very hard, to find ways to shove this situation through the Iraq/WMD narrative lens that you use to also discredit our support of Ukraine. But tell me if I’m off base there.

it's not even that hard, tho! Biden is literally among those same dipshits who derped us on WMDs in Iraq! That gaffe can and SHOULD be reason to question the credibility of the government's wartime narratives going forward.

YMMV I guess. I interpreted Biden’s “see” comment to mean something more like “live to see”.

But in any case, my overall point is still the more important one: the very fact that this is muddying up the discussion is very very very much playing into Hamas’ and its backers’ hands. The ambiguity, the “well BOTH sides are to blame here” is the POINT.

thanks for clarifying your interpretation.

"I never thought I'd live to see WMDs in Iraq!"

ah, that makes it all better now.

and what ambiguity do you speak of here? Do mean to suggest both sides are not to blame?

Before you go all "pro-Putin" on me about Hamas too, let me AGAIN condemn them and their violence.

My point is, now it seems the Hamas violence is being used as justification for Israel to carry out a genocidal war with no end in sight, with weapons furnished largely by you and me.

That just rubs me the wrong way. And, once again, perpetuates the "only solution to war is more war" sort of logic.

So, lemme ask: how much of a response do you consider appropriate from Israel? How many families is it ok to bomb, warning or no? How long should this last? Should Palestine be wiped off the face of the earth while mich toasts to it? And how much of it should be paid for by you and me?

[ousdahl]

if you look around the room and everyone else is broken, maybe you’re the one that’s actually broken

do you mean to say mich is NOT broken?

There are very broken people on both sides.

yea.

but one side is the they/thems like "especially with no end in sight in the Ukraine/Russia war in which we are very much involved, maybe we should also think twice about all the Islamophobic rhetoric and escalation and perpetuation being pushed right now to justify supporting what every human rights group everywhere has called an apartheid state seizing the opportunity of a counter-offensive to wipe an entire ethnic population away from its country," and the other side is mich like "yea let's just wipe that entire ethnic population away"

as if that's in any similar levels of broken

[KUTradition]

having given this some thought over the past few days, i think the strongest thing Israel and it’s allies could do right now would be to push forward with the Saudi relationship. it seems to me that such normalization is exactly the sort of thing hamas, hezbollah, and iran would want to prevent

[jfish26]

and if you don't think Biden claimed to have seen pictures, then why did he say, “I never really thought that I would see, have confirmed pictures of terrorists beheading children.”? And why did the White House subsequently clarify that neither he nor other U.S. officials see such pictures?



dude, I mean this respectfully, when I say, this may or may not be some 2+2=5 kinda shit.



it's not even that hard, tho! Biden is literally among those same dipshits who derped us on WMDs in Iraq! That gaffe can and SHOULD be reason to question the credibility of the government's wartime narratives going forward.

YMMV I guess. I interpreted Biden’s “see” comment to mean something more like “live to see”.

But in any case, my overall point is still the more important one: the very fact that this is muddying up the discussion is very very very much playing into Hamas’ and its backers’ hands. The ambiguity, the “well BOTH sides are to blame here” is the POINT.

thanks for clarifying your interpretation.

"I never thought I'd live to see WMDs in Iraq!"

ah, that makes it all better now.

and what ambiguity do you speak of here? Do mean to suggest both sides are not to blame?

Before you go all "pro-Putin" on me about Hamas too, let me AGAIN condemn them and their violence.

My point is, now it seems the Hamas violence is being used as justification for Israel to carry out a genocidal war with no end in sight, with weapons furnished largely by you and me.

That just rubs me the wrong way. And, once again, perpetuates the "only solution to war is more war" sort of logic.

So, lemme ask: how much of a response do you consider appropriate from Israel? How many families is it ok to bomb, warning or no? How long should this last? Should Palestine be wiped off the face of the earth while mich toasts to it? And how much of it should be paid for by you and me?

Too many things in the blender, man.

You used the fact that Biden hasn’t himself seen pictures of headless kids to criticize Biden’s expression of support for Israel.

Then that spiraled into you conflating the bar for expressing support for Israel with the bar for putting US troops in harm’s way.

Of COURSE I would not say that unsubstantiated reports of headless children are not sufficient evidence for putting US troops in harm’s way. NO ONE is saying that!

But is our support for Israel to date exactly as justifiable if those reports are untrue as if they are true? Yes, of course. That’s what is meant by people saying, reasonably, that it doesn’t really matter if kids were decapitated, or not.

[ousdahl]

more precisely - I tried to use the fact Biden hasn't himself seen pictures of headless kids to attempt to express skepticism about the fact Biden himself suggested he's seen pictures of headless kids.

Not sure why that's so difficult to comprehend.

perhaps the bigger issue is, how western talking heads ran with the beheaded babies story as much as they did, until they just kinda casually walked it back, and propaganda-conditioned imperial subjects don't even think twice but predictably shrug it off like "well maybe it was more of a live to see" kinda thing, it doesn't actually matter whether kids were decapitated or not, the important thing is we justify support for this war."

this seems to be illustrating in real time just how effective propaganda can be.

[KUTradition]

Qatar has agreed to put a complete freeze on the $6B

[jfish26]

more precisely - I tried to use the fact Biden hasn't himself seen pictures of headless kids to attempt to express skepticism about the fact Biden himself suggested he's seen pictures of headless kids.

Not sure why that's so difficult to comprehend.

perhaps the bigger issue is, how western talking heads ran with the beheaded babies story as much as they did, until they just kinda casually walked it back, and propaganda-conditioned imperial subjects don't even think twice but predictably shrug it off like "well maybe it was more of a live to see" kinda thing, it doesn't actually matter whether kids were decapitated or not, the important thing is we justify support for this war."

this seems to be illustrating in real time just how effective propaganda can be.

So you’d be in this same spiral if Biden’s words were “I never really thought that I would see the day when a close ally’s head of state’s spokesman says there are confirmed pictures of terrorists beheading children”?

[dolomite]

I don’t think Biden claimed to have seen pictures.

and if you don't think Biden claimed to have seen pictures, then why did he say, “I never really thought that I would see, have confirmed pictures of terrorists beheading children.”? And why did the White House subsequently clarify that neither he nor other U.S. officials see such pictures?

I have zero issue with Biden relying on claims made by a foreign leader’s spokesman, in the context of the claims being used by Biden as support for Biden’s rhetorical expression of support of that foreign leader.

dude, I mean this respectfully, when I say, this may or may not be some 2+2=5 kinda shit.

It seems like you are hunting, very very hard, to find ways to shove this situation through the Iraq/WMD narrative lens that you use to also discredit our support of Ukraine. But tell me if I’m off base there.

it's not even that hard, tho! Biden is literally among those same dipshits who derped us on WMDs in Iraq! That gaffe can and SHOULD be reason to question the credibility of the government's wartime narratives going forward.

I wouldn’t put it past Saddam to have shipped WMD’s to Syria. He did use some to gas the Kurds.