Israel/Palestine

[DCHawk1]

So, lemme ask: how much of a response do you consider appropriate from Israel? How many families is it ok to bomb, warning or no? How long should this last? Should Palestine be wiped off the face of the earth while mich toasts to it? And how much of it should be paid for by you and me?

Here's the funny thing. You can't even talk about this intelligently because you can't find the words to express what you believe because they don't exist.

There is no Palestine to wipe off the face of the earth. And that's not a mere technicality. For literally three-quarters of a century, time and again, the Palestinians have been offered their own, independent state and have -- time and again -- refused, because to accept the offer would mean acknowledging the legitimacy of the state of Israel. And they just can't fucking do it.

I'll ask again, for the third or fourth time: why, 75 years later, are there "refugee" camps in the Palestinian territories? Is there any other place in the world -- has there ever been any other place in the world -- where refugee camps have been operational for 75 years

I don't think you can answer that question -- at least not honestly -- because doing so would cause your ill-informed narrative about the responsibility for the conditions in Gaza to crumble.

You either have no idea what you're talking about, which is sad, or you do, which would be even sadder.

[mjl2]

having given this some thought over the past few days, i think the strongest thing Israel and it’s allies could do right now would be to push forward with the Saudi relationship. it seems to me that such normalization is exactly the sort of thing hamas, hezbollah, and iran would want to prevent

This would be ideal. But I also don't know that it's possible right now - MBS would be seen as a traitor by a large chunk of his own people. I would hope this is at least being attempted though

[dolomite]

Qatar has agreed to put a complete freeze on the $6B

And mark those bills.

[ousdahl]

So, lemme ask: how much of a response do you consider appropriate from Israel? How many families is it ok to bomb, warning or no? How long should this last? Should Palestine be wiped off the face of the earth while mich toasts to it? And how much of it should be paid for by you and me?

Here's the funny thing. You can't even talk about this intelligently because you can't find the words to express what you believe because they don't exist.

There is no Palestine to wipe off the face of the earth. And that's not a mere technicality. For literally three-quarters of a century, time and again, the Palestinians have been offered their own, independent state and have -- time and again -- refused, because to accept the offer would mean acknowledging the legitimacy of the state of Israel. And they just can't fucking do it.

I'll ask again, for the third or fourth time: why, 75 years later, are there "refugee" camps in the Palestinian territories? Is there any other place in the world -- has there ever been any other place in the world -- where refugee camps have been operational for 75 years

I don't think you can answer that question -- at least not honestly -- because doing so would cause your ill-informed narrative about the responsibility for the conditions in Gaza to crumble.

You either have no idea what you're talking about, which is sad, or you do, which would be even sadder.

sweet condescension bro.

thank you tho for clarifying your point on refugee camps.

it seems kinda gaslighty to blame refugees for refugee camps. "Stop hitting yourself!" Especially if the issue at hand is they refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of the state that didn't really exist until 75 years ago, and came as some result of some British colonialism, and the entire creation of which meant the displacement of the people who were already living there. And just consider that logic! What next, do you expect Ukraine to just finally accept it, and acknowledge the legitimacy of Russian-annexed territory too?! If so, Fish would like a word.

Again, there's some bigger issue of settler colonialism here.

but, let's go with the idea of a two-state solution. Would that end the fighting?

Heck, if Palestine doesn't even exist, why is Israel so determined to wipe it off the face of the earth anyway?

[ousdahl]

I don’t think Biden claimed to have seen pictures.

and if you don't think Biden claimed to have seen pictures, then why did he say, “I never really thought that I would see, have confirmed pictures of terrorists beheading children.”? And why did the White House subsequently clarify that neither he nor other U.S. officials see such pictures?

I have zero issue with Biden relying on claims made by a foreign leader’s spokesman, in the context of the claims being used by Biden as support for Biden’s rhetorical expression of support of that foreign leader.

dude, I mean this respectfully, when I say, this may or may not be some 2+2=5 kinda shit.

It seems like you are hunting, very very hard, to find ways to shove this situation through the Iraq/WMD narrative lens that you use to also discredit our support of Ukraine. But tell me if I’m off base there.

it's not even that hard, tho! Biden is literally among those same dipshits who derped us on WMDs in Iraq! That gaffe can and SHOULD be reason to question the credibility of the government's wartime narratives going forward.

I wouldn’t put it past Saddam to have shipped WMD’s to Syria. He did use some to gas the Kurds.

careful bro! next thing you know, we'll be invading Iraq again.

Syria too!

Well...wait...we kinda really already are in Syria.

we're kinda still in Iraq too.

But no one cares cuz nothing matters any more.

[ousdahl]

more precisely - I tried to use the fact Biden hasn't himself seen pictures of headless kids to attempt to express skepticism about the fact Biden himself suggested he's seen pictures of headless kids.

Not sure why that's so difficult to comprehend.

perhaps the bigger issue is, how western talking heads ran with the beheaded babies story as much as they did, until they just kinda casually walked it back, and propaganda-conditioned imperial subjects don't even think twice but predictably shrug it off like "well maybe it was more of a live to see" kinda thing, it doesn't actually matter whether kids were decapitated or not, the important thing is we justify support for this war."

this seems to be illustrating in real time just how effective propaganda can be.

So you’d be in this same spiral if Biden’s words were “I never really thought that I would see the day when a close ally’s head of state’s spokesman says there are confirmed pictures of terrorists beheading children”?

I mean...wut?

that's just not what he said.

you seem to be suggesting this hypo as some attempt to distract from Biden saying one thing then his own White House clarifying otherwise. (if there was no issue with what Biden said, then why'd they bother clarifying?)

in this hypo tho, does the White House still quickly follow up with a clarification like, "Actually Biden never did see the day when a close ally's head of state's spokesman says there are confirmed pictures of terrorists beheading children" ?

[DCHawk1]

So, lemme ask: how much of a response do you consider appropriate from Israel? How many families is it ok to bomb, warning or no? How long should this last? Should Palestine be wiped off the face of the earth while mich toasts to it? And how much of it should be paid for by you and me?

Here's the funny thing. You can't even talk about this intelligently because you can't find the words to express what you believe because they don't exist.

There is no Palestine to wipe off the face of the earth. And that's not a mere technicality. For literally three-quarters of a century, time and again, the Palestinians have been offered their own, independent state and have -- time and again -- refused, because to accept the offer would mean acknowledging the legitimacy of the state of Israel. And they just can't fucking do it.

I'll ask again, for the third or fourth time: why, 75 years later, are there "refugee" camps in the Palestinian territories? Is there any other place in the world -- has there ever been any other place in the world -- where refugee camps have been operational for 75 years

I don't think you can answer that question -- at least not honestly -- because doing so would cause your ill-informed narrative about the responsibility for the conditions in Gaza to crumble.

You either have no idea what you're talking about, which is sad, or you do, which would be even sadder.

sweet condescension bro.

thank you tho for clarifying your point on refugee camps.

it seems kinda gaslighty to blame refugees for refugee camps. "Stop hitting yourself!" Especially if the issue at hand is they refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of the state that didn't really exist until 75 years ago, and came as some result of some British colonialism, and the entire creation of which meant the displacement of the people who were already living there. And just consider that logic! What next, do you expect Ukraine to just finally accept it, and acknowledge the legitimacy of Russian-annexed territory too?! If so, Fish would like a word.

Again, there's some bigger issue of settler colonialism here.

but, let's go with the idea of a two-state solution. Would that end the fighting?

Heck, if Palestine doesn't even exist, why is Israel so determined to wipe it off the face of the earth anyway?

sweet condescension bro.

You've more than earned it.

it seems kinda gaslighty to blame refugees for refugee camps.

Good thing I didn't do that then, right? You can't quite put your finger on it, can you? The camps are pure propaganda. And you just aren't quite bright enough to see it.

the state that didn't really exist until 75 years ago

You misspelled "4000."

came as some result of some British colonialism,

Is there anything else that might have happened in the 75-85 years-ago timeframe that might explain the existence of the modern state of Israel? Or is mjl right and you deny it?

Again, there's some bigger issue of settler colonialism here.

Do you know what the Crusades were? I mean...the area has been colonized, alright, just not the way you'd like to believe.

do you expect Ukraine to just finally accept it, and acknowledge the legitimacy of Russian-annexed territory too?!

Quit trying to shoehorn this into other scenarios. This is not about Ukraine, and it's not about WMDs. It's a discreet conflict based on the oldest and most potent hatred in human history.

let's go with the idea of a two-state solution. Would that end the fighting?

Of course not. Do you know what "from the river to the sea" means?

if Palestine doesn't even exist, why is Israel so determined to wipe it off the face of the earth anyway?

It's not. That's your fever dream. Get help.

[ousdahl]

oh, look who's cosplaying as a vertebrate again!

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/1 ... s-00120957

Sen. Bernie Sanders slammed the Israeli government Wednesday, accusing the country of violating international law after Israeli leaders said they would cut electricity and deny food to Gaza in response to the devastating Hamas-led incursion over the weekend that left hundreds of Israeli civilians dead.

“The targeting of civilians is a war crime, no matter who does it. Israel’s blanket denial of food, water, and other necessities to Gaza is a serious violation of international law and will do nothing but harm innocent civilians,” Sanders (I-Vt.) said in a statement Wednesday.
...
“The United States has rightly offered solidarity and support to Israel in responding to Hamas’ attack. But we must also insist on restraint from Israeli forces attacking Gaza and work to secure UN humanitarian access,” Sanders said. “Let us not forget that half of the 2 million people in Gaza are children. Children and innocent people do not deserve to be punished for the acts of Hamas.”

like for real, name one other country who could cut off food and water and energy to 2 million civilians, and we'd not only fail to condemn it, but offer (largely militant) support for it. Anyone?

[Sparko]

Qus: You forgot to mention this transpired after making unrestrained terrorist attacks on vast swaths of civilians and harboring said terrorists. It will be a hard slog. I am sure the initial recourse will be softened.

[DCHawk1]

nAmE oNe OtHeR pEoPlE wHo CoUlD tAkE hUnDrEdS oF NoN-cOmBaTaNtS hOsTaGe AnD sTiLl GeT Q tO sUcK tHeM oFf?

[mjl2]

Here's the funny thing. You can't even talk about this intelligently because you can't find the words to express what you believe because they don't exist.

There is no Palestine to wipe off the face of the earth. And that's not a mere technicality. For literally three-quarters of a century, time and again, the Palestinians have been offered their own, independent state and have -- time and again -- refused, because to accept the offer would mean acknowledging the legitimacy of the state of Israel. And they just can't fucking do it.

I'll ask again, for the third or fourth time: why, 75 years later, are there "refugee" camps in the Palestinian territories? Is there any other place in the world -- has there ever been any other place in the world -- where refugee camps have been operational for 75 years

I don't think you can answer that question -- at least not honestly -- because doing so would cause your ill-informed narrative about the responsibility for the conditions in Gaza to crumble.

You either have no idea what you're talking about, which is sad, or you do, which would be even sadder.

sweet condescension bro.

thank you tho for clarifying your point on refugee camps.

it seems kinda gaslighty to blame refugees for refugee camps. "Stop hitting yourself!" Especially if the issue at hand is they refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of the state that didn't really exist until 75 years ago, and came as some result of some British colonialism, and the entire creation of which meant the displacement of the people who were already living there. And just consider that logic! What next, do you expect Ukraine to just finally accept it, and acknowledge the legitimacy of Russian-annexed territory too?! If so, Fish would like a word.

Again, there's some bigger issue of settler colonialism here.

but, let's go with the idea of a two-state solution. Would that end the fighting?

Heck, if Palestine doesn't even exist, why is Israel so determined to wipe it off the face of the earth anyway?

sweet condescension bro.

You've more than earned it.

it seems kinda gaslighty to blame refugees for refugee camps.

Good thing I didn't do that then, right? You can't quite put your finger on it, can you? The camps are pure propaganda. And you just aren't quite bright enough to see it.

the state that didn't really exist until 75 years ago

You misspelled "4000."

came as some result of some British colonialism,

Is there anything else that might have happened in the 75-85 years-ago timeframe that might explain the existence of the modern state of Israel? Or is mjl right and you deny it?

Again, there's some bigger issue of settler colonialism here.

Do you know what the Crusades were? I mean...the area has been colonized, alright, just not the way you'd like to believe.

do you expect Ukraine to just finally accept it, and acknowledge the legitimacy of Russian-annexed territory too?!

Quit trying to shoehorn this into other scenarios. This is not about Ukraine, and it's not about WMDs. It's a discreet conflict based on the oldest and most potent hatred in human history.

let's go with the idea of a two-state solution. Would that end the fighting?

Of course not. Do you know what "from the river to the sea" means?

if Palestine doesn't even exist, why is Israel so determined to wipe it off the face of the earth anyway?

It's not. That's your fever dream. Get help.

For the record, I didn't say he was a Holocaust denier, I said he's using the same kind of rhetoric. Another case of it being unclear if he's too stupid to understand the difference or if he's intentionally twisting it

[DCHawk1]

For the record, I didn't say he was a Holocaust denier, I said he's using the same kind of rhetoric. Another case of it being unclear if he's too stupid to understand the difference or if he's intentionally twisting it

My mistake and apologies.

[KUTradition]

…The leadership of Iranian-backed Iraqi militias Kata'ib Sayyid al-Shuhada, Ashab al-Kahf, Asaib Ahl al-Haq, Kataib Hezbollah, and the Badr Organization said they would strike U.S. targets if there were any intervention by Washington in the war, the Institute for the Study of War (ISW) reported.

The threshold for Lebanese Hezbollah, a key backer of Hamas, would be if Israel conducts a ground operation into Gaza, on whose border Israeli reservists are gathered ahead of an expected incursion into the enclave.

U.S. involvement in the war would also be a red line for Yemen's Houthi movement, while Iran will intervene if Israel attacks the Islamic State, the Washington, D.C.-based think tank said…

per Newsweek

[jfish26]

more precisely - I tried to use the fact Biden hasn't himself seen pictures of headless kids to attempt to express skepticism about the fact Biden himself suggested he's seen pictures of headless kids.

Not sure why that's so difficult to comprehend.

perhaps the bigger issue is, how western talking heads ran with the beheaded babies story as much as they did, until they just kinda casually walked it back, and propaganda-conditioned imperial subjects don't even think twice but predictably shrug it off like "well maybe it was more of a live to see" kinda thing, it doesn't actually matter whether kids were decapitated or not, the important thing is we justify support for this war."

this seems to be illustrating in real time just how effective propaganda can be.

So you’d be in this same spiral if Biden’s words were “I never really thought that I would see the day when a close ally’s head of state’s spokesman says there are confirmed pictures of terrorists beheading children”?

I mean...wut?

that's just not what he said.

you seem to be suggesting this hypo as some attempt to distract from Biden saying one thing then his own White House clarifying otherwise. (if there was no issue with what Biden said, then why'd they bother clarifying?)

in this hypo tho, does the White House still quickly follow up with a clarification like, "Actually Biden never did see the day when a close ally's head of state's spokesman says there are confirmed pictures of terrorists beheading children" ?

But Biden DID see that day. That’s the point!

You are using what was - at most - an inconsequential misstatement in a live speech to undercut the fundamental basis for Biden’s expression of support for Israel.

Molehill —> mountain.

This is just not remotely comparable to using “bad” (or whatever you’d like to call it, really!) intel on Iraqi WMDs to put US troops in harm’s way in Iraq 20 years ago.

And: who benefits from this fixation? Who would be amplifying it on social media? Who stands to gain from muddying the waters in this way?

[ousdahl]

sweet condescension bro.

You've more than earned it.

stop hitting yourself!

it seems kinda gaslighty to blame refugees for refugee camps.

Good thing I didn't do that then, right? You can't quite put your finger on it, can you? The camps are pure propaganda. And you just aren't quite bright enough to see it.

wait, so are they refugee camps, or just propaganda? You're the one who keeps bringing up refugee camps. If they are indeed just propaganda, and don't actually exist, please do clarify, I'll eat that crauw. Maybe I really am just not bright enough to keep up, or maybe you're just talking out of both sides of your mouth.

the state that didn't really exist until 75 years ago

You misspelled "4000."

point made. So folks have been fighting over this place since for millennia. How does a country not he other side of the world flooding it with weapons help the sitch?

came as some result of some British colonialism,

Is there anything else that might have happened in the 75-85 years-ago timeframe that might explain the existence of the modern state of Israel? Or is mjl right and you deny it?

AGAIN, I don't deny the holocaust! (and heads up, it's particularly gaslighty points like this that make me want to persist, rather than just let you try to paint me as something I'm not with your narcissistic bullshit. Knock this off, and so will I!)

The holocaust was awful, and we should do what we can to prevent such atrocities from ever happening again! Maybe the creation of Israel was necessary in the wake of the holocaust. Maybe another good step would have been comprehensive purging of nazis, rather than giving them high-ranking positions in NATO, and refuge in places like the Argentina and the US and Canada.

With that said, the nation of Israel being necessary post-holocaust is in no way a justification for Israelis to do to Palestinians what nazis did to the Jewish people. Why are YOU denying all the human rights organizations that have described Israel's treatment of Palestine as apartheid? Do you *really* mean to whitewash that, pun intended?

Again, there's some bigger issue of settler colonialism here.

Do you know what the Crusades were? I mean...the area has been colonized, alright, just not the way you'd like to believe.

yea, we already talked about that. This place has been fought over for a long ass time. So, again, how does another bloody chapter of colonialism, based largely on more ethnic and religious nationalism, with more weapons paid for this time by you and me, help? Is the only way to end fighting more fighting?

do you expect Ukraine to just finally accept it, and acknowledge the legitimacy of Russian-annexed territory too?!

Quit trying to shoehorn this into other scenarios. This is not about Ukraine, and it's not about WMDs. It's a discreet conflict based on the oldest and most potent hatred in human history.

do tell us the difference between why Ukrainians shouldn't accept displacement but Arabs should. Should I go get popcorn before you do?

let's go with the idea of a two-state solution. Would that end the fighting?

Of course not. Do you know what "from the river to the sea" means?

so why should it be up to the (people you say don't even exist) to accept a two-state solution, then?

if Palestine doesn't even exist, why is Israel so determined to wipe it off the face of the earth anyway?

It's not. That's your fever dream. Get help.

so how much of an Israeli counter-offensive do you think is appropriate here?

[ousdahl]

nAmE oNe OtHeR pEoPlE wHo CoUlD tAkE hUnDrEdS oF NoN-cOmBaTaNtS hOsTaGe AnD sTiLl GeT Q tO sUcK tHeM oFf?

Hamas war crimes bad Israeli war crimes good?

[twocoach]

Oh my. Stay for the end.

https://x.com/kanekoathegreat/status/17 ... q_-8Yt1KMA

This thread in a nutshell.

Just because you don't know much about the issue doesn't mean both sides are equal

OK, cool. I said nothing of the sort and commented because it is just a bunch of irrational screaming at the slightest inkling of someone saying something you might disagree with.

Thanks for proving my point.

[ousdahl]

For the record, I didn't say he was a Holocaust denier, I said he's using the same kind of rhetoric. Another case of it being unclear if he's too stupid to understand the difference or if he's intentionally twisting it

My mistake and apologies.

let mjl know that I also condemn Goebbels, and deny that I'm trying to be him, despite the accusations.

[DCHawk1]

Israelis to do to Palestinians what nazis did to the Jewish people.

fuck off.

[mjl2]

This thread in a nutshell.

Just because you don't know much about the issue doesn't mean both sides are equal

OK, cool. I said nothing of the sort and commented because it is just a bunch of irrational screaming at the slightest inkling of someone saying something you might disagree with.

Thanks for proving my point.

Besides Q and Mich, what is irrational?