Israel/Palestine

[mjl2]

Israel's Hamas = ISIS thing they are pushing - it's driving me nuts. It's dumb. Israel has always survived by being smart and driven. This is lazy and stupid. They need to get away from it. It's not catchy and nobody thinks about ISIS anymore.

The truth in this case is more effective.

Netanyahu failed on his appointments, failed on intelligence, and is failing in public image despite having the moral high ground. I had been of the mindset of litigating that later.

Now my mindset is remove him immediately and place Gantz or Lapid in charge.

[mjl2]

People are calling Israel's call to Gazans to leave the northern half a war crime.

A warning to leave before an invasion in order to save lives. Saving lives. Nobody does this - nobody warns before an invasion. They are doing it to save lives.

Saving lives is being called a war crime.

Fuck this world. Fuck it. Only the Jewish nation is held to a standard where they can get a huge chunk of their people killed, they act to save lives from the other side, and they're called war criminals.

This is why Israel needs to exist. Fuck this antisemitic world.

[ousdahl]

holy shit!

while antisemitism is and has been a problem in this world, i just kinda doubt that's why these are being called war crimes.

maybe, just maybe, it's being called war crimes cuz Israel is slaughtering civilians!

These people have no food, no water, no energy, nowhere to go, trapped in a densely-populated area surrounded by walls and troops, and he thinks that giving some warning that may or may not even really be given makes it ok to fucking bomb them? They're not saving lives, they're taking lives. Half these people are kids!

Israel's already killed more Palestinians than the other way around, with no apparent end in sight. And, Israel's already displaced hundreds of thousands of Palestinians more - which is what this is all about. We're witnessing an ethnic cleansing.

Name one other country that could tell a million people to leave their homes or else they're gonna be bombed, and get away with it.

by this logic - that it's ok to do what Israel's doing just cuz they claim to give warning...Egypt gave Israel warning that a Hamas attack was imminent, and it's not like that makes the Hamas attack ok.

Well, maybe it's OK in mjl's mind. I prob shouldn't speak for such an evil person.

[ousdahl]

It's not that simple.
Hamas blends with the civilians. And it's not like the civilians like Israel and are waiting to be saved.

Exactly.

Q bitches about Israel targeting hospitals, but that's the kinda shit that happens when Hamas sets up operational headquarters in a hospital.

hey there hawk, you got any other war crimes you'd like to make excuses for?

maybe it's not just more gaslighting, and Hamas is setting up headquarters in ambulances too.

and in UN schools too!

and along those corridors full of evacuees!

[RainbowsandUnicorns]

People are calling Israel's call to Gazans to leave the northern half a war crime.

A warning to leave before an invasion in order to save lives. Saving lives. Nobody does this - nobody warns before an invasion. They are doing it to save lives.

Saving lives is being called a war crime.

Fuck this world. Fuck it. Only the Jewish nation is held to a standard where they can get a huge chunk of their people killed, they act to save lives from the other side, and they're called war criminals.

This is why Israel needs to exist. Fuck this antisemitic world.

I understand your anger and frustration but look at it from even a neutral perspective.

It's being considered a war crime because they are advising people to leave their home/s in an unrealistic amount of time because regardless if Hamas is using hospitals, schools, civilian housing. etc. to hide and blend in, the Israelis are going to destroy their homes, businesses, schools, hospitals, etc.
The Israelis are telling these people to move to places that have already been destroyed. Places with no water, food, electricity.
It’s considered forceable movement/displacement - in to places that are not suitable for living and survival. Bottom line, that’s rightfully being considered a war crime.
Tell me how you would feel if it was another country doing the same thing/s to the Israelis.
As far as your blaming anti-Semitism for the sentiment, sure some of it is but not all of it. I know plenty of Jews who fully support Israel who are not at all pleased with what Israel is doing in Gaza.

[Shirley]

I have a hard time accepting this, but...

October 14, 2023-The US is involved in this war because of its strong support for Israel. That gives the US the responsibility to help craft a strategy that is not based on war crimes.

Mitchell Minute 1691-The US Role in the War in Israel

[ousdahl]

Why a hard time?

an Israel based on war crimes is not an Israel that will keep the Jewish people safe

nor will it keep the world at large safe

[ousdahl]

People are calling Israel's call to Gazans to leave the northern half a war crime.

A warning to leave before an invasion in order to save lives. Saving lives. Nobody does this - nobody warns before an invasion. They are doing it to save lives.

Saving lives is being called a war crime.

Fuck this world. Fuck it. Only the Jewish nation is held to a standard where they can get a huge chunk of their people killed, they act to save lives from the other side, and they're called war criminals.

This is why Israel needs to exist. Fuck this antisemitic world.

I understand your anger and frustration but look at it from even a neutral perspective.

It's being considered a war crime because they are advising people to leave their home/s in an unrealistic amount of time because regardless if Hamas is using hospitals, schools, civilian housing. etc. to hide and blend in, the Israelis are going to destroy their homes, businesses, schools, hospitals, etc.
The Israelis are telling these people to move to places that have already been destroyed. Places with no water, food, electricity.
It’s considered forceable movement/displacement - in to places that are not suitable for living and survival. Bottom line, that’s rightfully being considered a war crime.
Tell me how you would feel if it was another country doing the same thing/s to the Israelis.
As far as your blaming anti-Semitism for the sentiment, sure some of it is but not all of it. I know plenty of Jews who fully support Israel who are not at all pleased with what Israel is doing in Gaza.

another good post gutter!

now, when's shakedown start in front of the United Center?

[jfish26]

by this logic - that it's ok to do what Israel's doing just cuz they claim to give warning...Egypt gave Israel warning that a Hamas attack was imminent, and it's not like that makes the Hamas attack ok.

Those are…not comparable things.

In any case, what would you have Israel do here? Do you simply tell terrorists that as long as they have human shields, they can do whatever they want? How’s that end?

There is no doubt that Israel has a hand in things getting to where they are. But it was Hamas who attacked here, and Hamas that has made it so that Israel cannot fight Hamas WITHOUT endangering non-combatants; nothing is stopping Hamas from forming fighting lines and engaging with the IDF directly. Hamas isn’t doing that, of course, because asymmetric warfare is the only sort at which it can stay in the fight.

[ousdahl]

https://x.com/jvpliveNY/status/1712982045662880118?s=20

https://x.com/jvpliveNY/status/1713000861637755127?s=20

[RainbowsandUnicorns]

holy shit!

while antisemitism is and has been a problem in this world, i just kinda doubt that's why these are being called war crimes.

maybe, just maybe, it's being called war crimes cuz Israel is slaughtering civilians!

These people have no food, no water, no energy, nowhere to go, trapped in a densely-populated area surrounded by walls and troops, and he thinks that giving some warning that may or may not even really be given makes it ok to fucking bomb them? They're not saving lives, they're taking lives. Half these people are kids!

Israel's already killed more Palestinians than the other way around, with no apparent end in sight. And, Israel's already displaced hundreds of thousands of Palestinians more - which is what this is all about. We're witnessing an ethnic cleansing.

Name one other country that could tell a million people to leave their homes or else they're gonna be bombed, and get away with it.

by this logic - that it's ok to do what Israel's doing just cuz they claim to give warning...Egypt gave Israel warning that a Hamas attack was imminent, and it's not like that makes the Hamas attack ok.

Well, maybe it's OK in mjl's mind. I prob shouldn't speak for such an evil person.

What upsets me is that I feel some/much (but not all) of your sentiment isn't wrong.
Yet, you will get attacked for it on here.

For a poor but still somewhat applicable analogy, I am wondering how mjl would feel if I told him I had an army and we are going to destroy the entire North Shore of Chicago from Evanston to Lake Forest because that's where the Black Disciples/Gangster Disciples/Whatever Gang is hanging out and seeking shelter and planning horrific things in the city of Chicago from.
I am going to give him and everyone else who lives on the North Shore 30 minutes (an unrealistic amount of time) to get out of his home (that I am going to destroy - along with the rest of the 20 miles from Evanston to Lake Forest) and he can only relocate to an area such as Washington Park, Englewood, North Lawndale, after I have destroyed much of those areas. I have removed water, food, and electricity (and access to those necessities) from those areas too.
Something tells me his primary focus isn't going to be on my "compassion" of forewarning him that I am going to destroy his home and telling him to get the fuck out in an unreasonable amount of time before I destroy it.

[Shirley]

One minute you're at a music festival, and the next you're gassed and shot at, lying still for hours beneath the dead bodies you've covered yourself with to avoid becoming a hostage, or another dead Israeli.

Survivor Rafael Zimerman spoke to CNN's Anderson Cooper, saying he played dead in a bunker to make it through the attack

[ousdahl]

by this logic - that it's ok to do what Israel's doing just cuz they claim to give warning...Egypt gave Israel warning that a Hamas attack was imminent, and it's not like that makes the Hamas attack ok.

Those are…not comparable things.

In any case, what would you have Israel do here? Do you simply tell terrorists that as long as they have human shields, they can do whatever they want? How’s that end?

There is no doubt that Israel has a hand in things getting to where they are. But it was Hamas who attacked here, and Hamas that has made it so that Israel cannot fight Hamas WITHOUT endangering non-combatants; nothing is stopping Hamas from forming fighting lines and engaging with the IDF directly. Hamas isn’t doing that, of course, because asymmetric warfare is the only sort at which it can stay in the fight.

perhaps a solution may be something along the lines of, for Israel to actually admit they've had a hand in things getting to where they are?

Yes, the Hamas attack is condemnable. No one's denying that here.

But the ongoing Israeli response - and the conditions Israel has subjected Gaza to for years prior - is condemnable too. Let's not deny that, either.

[ousdahl]

holy shit!

while antisemitism is and has been a problem in this world, i just kinda doubt that's why these are being called war crimes.

maybe, just maybe, it's being called war crimes cuz Israel is slaughtering civilians!

These people have no food, no water, no energy, nowhere to go, trapped in a densely-populated area surrounded by walls and troops, and he thinks that giving some warning that may or may not even really be given makes it ok to fucking bomb them? They're not saving lives, they're taking lives. Half these people are kids!

Israel's already killed more Palestinians than the other way around, with no apparent end in sight. And, Israel's already displaced hundreds of thousands of Palestinians more - which is what this is all about. We're witnessing an ethnic cleansing.

Name one other country that could tell a million people to leave their homes or else they're gonna be bombed, and get away with it.

by this logic - that it's ok to do what Israel's doing just cuz they claim to give warning...Egypt gave Israel warning that a Hamas attack was imminent, and it's not like that makes the Hamas attack ok.

Well, maybe it's OK in mjl's mind. I prob shouldn't speak for such an evil person.

What upsets me is that I feel some/much (but not all) of your sentiment isn't wrong.
Yet, you will get attacked for it on here.

For a poor but still somewhat applicable analogy, I am wondering how mjl would feel if I told him I had an army and we are going to destroy the entire North Shore of Chicago from Evanston to Lake Forest because that's where the Black Disciples/Gangster Disciples/Whatever Gang is hanging out and seeking shelter and planning horrific things in the city of Chicago from.
I am going to give him and everyone else who lives on the North Shore 30 minutes (an unrealistic amount of time) to get out of his home (that I am going to destroy - along with the rest of the 20 miles from Evanston to Lake Forest) and he can only relocate to an area such as Washington Park, Englewood, North Lawndale, after I have destroyed much of those areas. I have removed water, food, and electricity (and access to those necessities) from those areas too.
Something tells me his primary focus isn't going to be on my "compassion" of forewarning him that I am going to destroy his home and telling him to get the fuck out in an unreasonable amount of time before I destroy it.

you're on fire, gutman.

I think the issue is, that "neutral perspective" you mention in your previous post.

I'm just not sure many folks realize how conditioned we collectively are to "pick a side" in matters of international conflict, and assume these things really can and do fit into the good-guy-bad-guy narratives. We boogeyman everything about the latter; while rationalizing, accepting, even cheering on everything about the former.

now, Phish rocked a Tweezer last night. That makes it 150000% more likely they're gonna rock a Tweeprize by the end of the weekend...I'm guessing tomorrow?

[mjl2]

People are calling Israel's call to Gazans to leave the northern half a war crime.

A warning to leave before an invasion in order to save lives. Saving lives. Nobody does this - nobody warns before an invasion. They are doing it to save lives.

Saving lives is being called a war crime.

Fuck this world. Fuck it. Only the Jewish nation is held to a standard where they can get a huge chunk of their people killed, they act to save lives from the other side, and they're called war criminals.

This is why Israel needs to exist. Fuck this antisemitic world.

I understand your anger and frustration but look at it from even a neutral perspective.

It's being considered a war crime because they are advising people to leave their home/s in an unrealistic amount of time because regardless if Hamas is using hospitals, schools, civilian housing. etc. to hide and blend in, the Israelis are going to destroy their homes, businesses, schools, hospitals, etc.
The Israelis are telling these people to move to places that have already been destroyed. Places with no water, food, electricity.
It’s considered forceable movement/displacement - in to places that are not suitable for living and survival. Bottom line, that’s rightfully being considered a war crime.
Tell me how you would feel if it was another country doing the same thing/s to the Israelis.
As far as your blaming anti-Semitism for the sentiment, sure some of it is but not all of it. I know plenty of Jews who fully support Israel who are not at all pleased with what Israel is doing in Gaza.

That's insane. One because it would never happen - Israel has been attacked many times, always without warning. Warning is better than no warning. Secondly Israel doesn't launch attacks intentionally targeting civilians, they don't have genocide as part of their states goal. So yes, it would be completely wrong for someone to do this to Israel.

You know Jews not pleased Israel is targeting Hamas in Gaza? I don't. But I am not surprised. There's plenty of Jews who like virtue signaling too.
What should Israel do? What's the proper response? They've shown remarkable constraint so far. No other country hit with an attack this size would show this much constraint.

And saying that steps to save lives is a war crime is infuriating. Absolutely infuriating.

Saving lives isn't a fucking war crime!

[mjl2]

by this logic - that it's ok to do what Israel's doing just cuz they claim to give warning...Egypt gave Israel warning that a Hamas attack was imminent, and it's not like that makes the Hamas attack ok.

Those are…not comparable things.

In any case, what would you have Israel do here? Do you simply tell terrorists that as long as they have human shields, they can do whatever they want? How’s that end?

There is no doubt that Israel has a hand in things getting to where they are. But it was Hamas who attacked here, and Hamas that has made it so that Israel cannot fight Hamas WITHOUT endangering non-combatants; nothing is stopping Hamas from forming fighting lines and engaging with the IDF directly. Hamas isn’t doing that, of course, because asymmetric warfare is the only sort at which it can stay in the fight.

Wait - you're arguing against another lie. There was one person who reported this who then retracted it.

[mjl2]

holy shit!

while antisemitism is and has been a problem in this world, i just kinda doubt that's why these are being called war crimes.

maybe, just maybe, it's being called war crimes cuz Israel is slaughtering civilians!

These people have no food, no water, no energy, nowhere to go, trapped in a densely-populated area surrounded by walls and troops, and he thinks that giving some warning that may or may not even really be given makes it ok to fucking bomb them? They're not saving lives, they're taking lives. Half these people are kids!

Israel's already killed more Palestinians than the other way around, with no apparent end in sight. And, Israel's already displaced hundreds of thousands of Palestinians more - which is what this is all about. We're witnessing an ethnic cleansing.

Name one other country that could tell a million people to leave their homes or else they're gonna be bombed, and get away with it.

by this logic - that it's ok to do what Israel's doing just cuz they claim to give warning...Egypt gave Israel warning that a Hamas attack was imminent, and it's not like that makes the Hamas attack ok.

Well, maybe it's OK in mjl's mind. I prob shouldn't speak for such an evil person.

What upsets me is that I feel some/much (but not all) of your sentiment isn't wrong.
Yet, you will get attacked for it on here.

For a poor but still somewhat applicable analogy, I am wondering how mjl would feel if I told him I had an army and we are going to destroy the entire North Shore of Chicago from Evanston to Lake Forest because that's where the Black Disciples/Gangster Disciples/Whatever Gang is hanging out and seeking shelter and planning horrific things in the city of Chicago from.
I am going to give him and everyone else who lives on the North Shore 30 minutes (an unrealistic amount of time) to get out of his home (that I am going to destroy - along with the rest of the 20 miles from Evanston to Lake Forest) and he can only relocate to an area such as Washington Park, Englewood, North Lawndale, after I have destroyed much of those areas. I have removed water, food, and electricity (and access to those necessities) from those areas too.
Something tells me his primary focus isn't going to be on my "compassion" of forewarning him that I am going to destroy his home and telling him to get the fuck out in an unreasonable amount of time before I destroy it.

Of course it would suck for me. But it would be a hell of a lot better than not warning. And if it got the gangs out, great. I would be very upset, but that wouldn't mean it isn't the right thing to do.

[mjl2]

Also Gutter, you haven't answered - what should Israel do?
It's easy to just criticize both sides and think so highly of yourself.
What the fuck should Israel do.

[RainbowsandUnicorns]

People are calling Israel's call to Gazans to leave the northern half a war crime.

A warning to leave before an invasion in order to save lives. Saving lives. Nobody does this - nobody warns before an invasion. They are doing it to save lives.

Saving lives is being called a war crime.

Fuck this world. Fuck it. Only the Jewish nation is held to a standard where they can get a huge chunk of their people killed, they act to save lives from the other side, and they're called war criminals.

This is why Israel needs to exist. Fuck this antisemitic world.

I understand your anger and frustration but look at it from even a neutral perspective.

It's being considered a war crime because they are advising people to leave their home/s in an unrealistic amount of time because regardless if Hamas is using hospitals, schools, civilian housing. etc. to hide and blend in, the Israelis are going to destroy their homes, businesses, schools, hospitals, etc.
The Israelis are telling these people to move to places that have already been destroyed. Places with no water, food, electricity.
It’s considered forceable movement/displacement - in to places that are not suitable for living and survival. Bottom line, that’s rightfully being considered a war crime.
Tell me how you would feel if it was another country doing the same thing/s to the Israelis.
As far as your blaming anti-Semitism for the sentiment, sure some of it is but not all of it. I know plenty of Jews who fully support Israel who are not at all pleased with what Israel is doing in Gaza.

That's insane. One because it would never happen - Israel has been attacked many times, always without warning. Warning is better than no warning. Secondly Israel doesn't launch attacks intentionally targeting civilians, they don't have genocide as part of their states goal. So yes, it would be completely wrong for someone to do this to Israel.

You know Jews not pleased Israel is targeting Hamas in Gaza? I don't. What should Israel do? What's the proper response? They've shown remarkable constraint so far. No other country hit with an attack this size would show this much constraint.

And saying that steps to save lives is a war crime is infuriating. Absolutely infuriating.

Saving lives isn't a fucking war crime!

A. "It would never happen"? That's a bold assumption. Unfortunately my response is..... Stay tuned? (with a question mark.
B. Yes, I agree 100% warning is better than no warning. That's the bottom line and it is a black and white statement but I feel it is a simplistic statement in a complicated scenario.
C. I agree with you that Israel typically doesn't launch attacks intentionally targeting civilians - and that's the number 1 difference to me in terms of the differences. That being said, Israel knows damn well they are killing civilians. I don't expect you to agree but I think they may care less about their killing civilians than you like to give them credit for.
D. I didn't say I know Jews who are not pleased Israel is targeting Hamas in Israel. I do know Jews that are not happy that Israel is acting in an extremely inhumane manner against the CITIZENS in Gaza.
E. What should Israel do is easy for me to answer. My answer is defend itself and try and obliterate Hamas. What is the proper response becomes a bit more difficult for me to answer but it's the same as my answer to the first question. I respectfully disagree that they have shown "remarkable constraint" so far. Yes, they could be doing more in regards to destruction but I hardly feel what they are doing is "remarkable constraint" and is seems much of the world feels that way too.
F. I also agree with you 100% in saying steps to save lives is a war crime is infuriating. Indeed Israel is actually trying to save lives but.... In the entirety of their steps, by definitions, I feel they are rightfully being accused of war crimes.

G. I think you and I are on the same page more than you think we are. It's a no win situation for Israel in which it really sucks that a country that is fighting for its right to exist after being attacked by terrorists comes out looking like bad guys. Not "THE" bad guys because of course Hamas are the real "bad guys" in the war but Israel does come off as bad guys - and it sucks.

[mjl2]

A. Not sure if you're intentionally misunderstanding? That comment was followed by context. Apply it.
B. No, simplistic is saying both sides are wrong and suggesting nothing else. This is the most humane approach. It takes complexity into account. You're not.
C. WHAT DO YOU SUGGEST THEY DO!?
D. Great, you know other virtue-signaler Jews who are oversimplifying this.
E. See C. Saying that you think they should obliterate Hamas and not kill civilians is not possible. It's like saying everyone should just hold hands and hug. It's childish.
F. See C.
G. See C.