Israel/Palestine

[ousdahl]

regarding the whole "warning" thing

on a practical level, how valuable is that, really?

not just for getting civilians out of harm's way.

but for effectively hitting intended targets...what's preventing Hamas from just evacuating alongside civilians when warned?

Are we really gonna believe something like, the warnings include a command for Hamas to stay put, and Hamas really will heed it?

"WARNING, this place is about to be bombed, please evacuate...but not if you're the bad guys, don't you go anywhere you bad guys, cuz you're the bad guys, and there's good guy bombs a'comin yer way!"

[RainbowsandUnicorns]

Also Gutter, you haven't answered - what should Israel do?
It's easy to just criticize both sides and think so highly of yourself.
What the fuck should Israel do.

I have answered in my other post what I feel Israel should do.
I criticize both sides because I strongly feel both sides are worthy of criticism. It doesn't mean I "side" with Hamas. Of course I don't. I 100% support Israel. I just refuse to ignore the atrocities I feel the Israelis are inflicting.
Your accusation (?) that I feel so highly of myself leaves me conflicted. I am someone who suffers from a lack of self esteem. Most people who know me well know that about me.
I have ZERO problem with someone accusing me of feeling good about myself for being compassionate in regards to other people who I feel are deserving of my compassion.

[mjl2]

Also Gutter, you haven't answered - what should Israel do?
It's easy to just criticize both sides and think so highly of yourself.
What the fuck should Israel do.

I have answered in my other post what I feel Israel should do.
I criticize both sides because I strongly feel both sides are worthy of criticism. It doesn't mean I "side" with Hamas. Of course I don't. I 100% support Israel. I just refuse to ignore the atrocities I feel the Israelis are inflicting.
Your accusation (?) that I feel so highly of myself leaves me conflicted. I am someone who suffers from a lack of self esteem. Most people who know me well know that about me.
I have ZERO problem with someone accusing me of feeling good about myself for being compassionate in regards to other people who I feel are deserving of my compassion.

Kill Hamas and avoid civilians?
That's not a suggestion. It's a fantasy.

[mjl2]

It seems the idea here is get people out, go door to door, and confiscate or destroy all the weapons and tunnels.
This seems like the most humane approach possible. Anyone have a better one?

[RainbowsandUnicorns]

Also Gutter, you haven't answered - what should Israel do?
It's easy to just criticize both sides and think so highly of yourself.
What the fuck should Israel do.

I have answered in my other post what I feel Israel should do.
I criticize both sides because I strongly feel both sides are worthy of criticism. It doesn't mean I "side" with Hamas. Of course I don't. I 100% support Israel. I just refuse to ignore the atrocities I feel the Israelis are inflicting.
Your accusation (?) that I feel so highly of myself leaves me conflicted. I am someone who suffers from a lack of self esteem. Most people who know me well know that about me.
I have ZERO problem with someone accusing me of feeling good about myself for being compassionate in regards to other people who I feel are deserving of my compassion.

Kill Hamas and avoid civilians?
That's not a suggestion. It's a fantasy.

I didn't say kill Hamas and avoid civilians. Right, that's fantasy.
As I have said, war is a bitch.
Still, I think/hope you agree - killing civilians and/or destroying their homes and purposely denying them food, water, electricity, isn't a good thing and rightfully makes the Israelis look bad- even if the Israelis goal is to take out terrorists and try to exist as a free country.

[RainbowsandUnicorns]

It seems the idea here is get people out, go door to door, and confiscate or destroy all the weapons and tunnels.
This seems like the most humane approach possible. Anyone have a better one?

Nope.

Although, I PARTIALLY agree with some of what ousdhal said - from an outsider's perspective.

[mjl2]

I have answered in my other post what I feel Israel should do.
I criticize both sides because I strongly feel both sides are worthy of criticism. It doesn't mean I "side" with Hamas. Of course I don't. I 100% support Israel. I just refuse to ignore the atrocities I feel the Israelis are inflicting.
Your accusation (?) that I feel so highly of myself leaves me conflicted. I am someone who suffers from a lack of self esteem. Most people who know me well know that about me.
I have ZERO problem with someone accusing me of feeling good about myself for being compassionate in regards to other people who I feel are deserving of my compassion.

Kill Hamas and avoid civilians?
That's not a suggestion. It's a fantasy.

I didn't say kill Hamas and avoid civilians. Right, that's fantasy.
As I have said, war is a bitch.
Still, I think/hope you agree - killing civilians and/or destroying their homes and purposely denying them food, water, electricity, isn't a good thing and rightfully makes the Israelis look bad- even if the Israelis goal is to take out terrorists and try to exist as a free country.

Fine. What do you think Israel should do.

Of course I am against killing civilians and destroying homes in a vacuum. But no, nobody who has no better alternative is right to think Israel looks bad here. Just saying everything is bad is childish.

[jfish26]

by this logic - that it's ok to do what Israel's doing just cuz they claim to give warning...Egypt gave Israel warning that a Hamas attack was imminent, and it's not like that makes the Hamas attack ok.

Those are…not comparable things.

In any case, what would you have Israel do here? Do you simply tell terrorists that as long as they have human shields, they can do whatever they want? How’s that end?

There is no doubt that Israel has a hand in things getting to where they are. But it was Hamas who attacked here, and Hamas that has made it so that Israel cannot fight Hamas WITHOUT endangering non-combatants; nothing is stopping Hamas from forming fighting lines and engaging with the IDF directly. Hamas isn’t doing that, of course, because asymmetric warfare is the only sort at which it can stay in the fight.

perhaps a solution may be something along the lines of, for Israel to actually admit they've had a hand in things getting to where they are?

Yes, the Hamas attack is condemnable. No one's denying that here.

But the ongoing Israeli response - and the conditions Israel has subjected Gaza to for years prior - is condemnable too. Let's not deny that, either.

Again, what is it you would have “condemnable” Israel do? Drop “we’re condemnable too but sorry anyway” leaflets not fewer than three business days prior to going after Hamas? Or go right to saying, out loud, that Hamas (and its backers) can do whatever they want to Israel, so long as they hide behind a functionally inexhaustible supply of human shields?

[RainbowsandUnicorns]

Kill Hamas and avoid civilians?
That's not a suggestion. It's a fantasy.

I didn't say kill Hamas and avoid civilians. Right, that's fantasy.
As I have said, war is a bitch.
Still, I think/hope you agree - killing civilians and/or destroying their homes and purposely denying them food, water, electricity, isn't a good thing and rightfully makes the Israelis look bad- even if the Israelis goal is to take out terrorists and try to exist as a free country.

Fine. What do you think Israel should do.

Of course I am against killing civilians and destroying homes in a vacuum. But no, nobody who has no better alternative is right to think Israel looks bad here. Just saying everything is bad is childish.

Again, it's a difficult question for me to answer specifically. I just don't have a definitive answer.
As I have basically said, I 100% support Israel's right to exist in peace and freedom and for Israel to take out any and all of those who have taken action/s against Israel in regards to that.
Right or wrong, the bottom line is killing innocent people and denying them necessities to live makes Israel look bad.
I agree just saying everything is bad is childish but bad is bad. Period.

[DCHawk1]

It's not that simple.
Hamas blends with the civilians. And it's not like the civilians like Israel and are waiting to be saved.

Exactly.

Q bitches about Israel targeting hospitals, but that's the kinda shit that happens when Hamas sets up operational headquarters in a hospital.

hey there hawk, you got any other war crimes you'd like to make excuses for?

Curious: Are you suggesting that this is a conspiracy theory and that Hamas did NOT set up operational headquarters in a hospital? Or are you suggesting that doing so is NOT a war crime on the part of Hamas?

[jfish26]

Exactly.

Q bitches about Israel targeting hospitals, but that's the kinda shit that happens when Hamas sets up operational headquarters in a hospital.

hey there hawk, you got any other war crimes you'd like to make excuses for?

Curious: Are you suggesting that this is a conspiracy theory and that Hamas did NOT set up operational headquarters in a hospital? Or are you suggesting that doing so is NOT a war crime on the part of Hamas?

Not to mention the important asymmetry of Israel being a state that is subject to international law (and needing to consider impacts on trade and other things)…and Hamas being nothing of the kind.

This is not so different from other conversations we’ve had, where the outsider has a massive advantage because the outsider doesn’t need to consider the same set of consequences.

[ousdahl]

Exactly.

Q bitches about Israel targeting hospitals, but that's the kinda shit that happens when Hamas sets up operational headquarters in a hospital.

hey there hawk, you got any other war crimes you'd like to make excuses for?

Curious: Are you suggesting that this is a conspiracy theory and that Hamas did NOT set up operational headquarters in a hospital? Or are you suggesting that doing so is NOT a war crime on the part of Hamas?

well, to answer your first question, it would help if you please provide your source to indicate Israel indeed confirmed a Hamas operational headquarters in a hospital before bombing said hospital - a cursory search yielded no such results for me.

For that matter, please provide sources to indicate Israel indeed confirmed Hamas operational headquarters within every other civilian target Israel has bombed, too.

you know, cuz I sure wouldn't want to suggest any conspiracy theories here!

but, to answer your second question - no, I do not mean to suggest tactics employed by Hamas here are NOT war crimes.

See, I aim to condemn ALL war crimes here; rather than just condemning the war crimes perpetrated by one side, while rationalizing the war crimes perpetrated by other, like your hawkish self is doing.

[ousdahl]

Those are…not comparable things.

In any case, what would you have Israel do here? Do you simply tell terrorists that as long as they have human shields, they can do whatever they want? How’s that end?

There is no doubt that Israel has a hand in things getting to where they are. But it was Hamas who attacked here, and Hamas that has made it so that Israel cannot fight Hamas WITHOUT endangering non-combatants; nothing is stopping Hamas from forming fighting lines and engaging with the IDF directly. Hamas isn’t doing that, of course, because asymmetric warfare is the only sort at which it can stay in the fight.

perhaps a solution may be something along the lines of, for Israel to actually admit they've had a hand in things getting to where they are?

Yes, the Hamas attack is condemnable. No one's denying that here.

But the ongoing Israeli response - and the conditions Israel has subjected Gaza to for years prior - is condemnable too. Let's not deny that, either.

Again, what is it you would have “condemnable” Israel do? Drop “we’re condemnable too but sorry anyway” leaflets not fewer than three business days prior to going after Hamas? Or go right to saying, out loud, that Hamas (and its backers) can do whatever they want to Israel, so long as they hide behind a functionally inexhaustible supply of human shields?

perhaps Israel could ease up on the apartheid treatment of Palestine in general. It's been described by human rights groups as an open-air prison, surrounded by walls and guard with shoot-to-kill orders, deprived of resources, subjected to constant raids and authoritarian brutality, one of the most surveilled places on earth, a humanitarian crisis that you yourself have described as a prime breeding ground for extremism.

Maybe start there?

[jfish26]

hey there hawk, you got any other war crimes you'd like to make excuses for?

Curious: Are you suggesting that this is a conspiracy theory and that Hamas did NOT set up operational headquarters in a hospital? Or are you suggesting that doing so is NOT a war crime on the part of Hamas?

well, to answer your first question, it would help if you please provide your source to indicate Israel indeed confirmed a Hamas operational headquarters in a hospital before bombing said hospital - a cursory search yielded no such results for me.

For that matter, please provide sources to indicate Israel indeed confirmed Hamas operational headquarters within every other civilian target Israel has bombed, too.

you know, cuz I sure wouldn't want to suggest any conspiracy theories here!

but, to answer your second question - no, I do not mean to suggest tactics employed by Hamas here are NOT war crimes.

See, I aim to condemn ALL war crimes here; rather than just condemning the war crimes perpetrated by one side, while rationalizing the war crimes perpetrated by other, like your hawkish self is doing.

Ok. Then you should be aware that you’re holding both sides to rules that only one side is remotely susceptible to consequences for breaking.

[jfish26]

perhaps a solution may be something along the lines of, for Israel to actually admit they've had a hand in things getting to where they are?

Yes, the Hamas attack is condemnable. No one's denying that here.

But the ongoing Israeli response - and the conditions Israel has subjected Gaza to for years prior - is condemnable too. Let's not deny that, either.

Again, what is it you would have “condemnable” Israel do? Drop “we’re condemnable too but sorry anyway” leaflets not fewer than three business days prior to going after Hamas? Or go right to saying, out loud, that Hamas (and its backers) can do whatever they want to Israel, so long as they hide behind a functionally inexhaustible supply of human shields?

perhaps Israel could ease up on the apartheid treatment of Palestine in general. It's been described by human rights groups as an open-air prison, surrounded by walls and guard with shoot-to-kill orders, deprived of resources, subjected to constant raids and authoritarian brutality, one of the most surveilled places on earth, a humanitarian crisis that you yourself have described as a prime breeding ground for extremism.

Maybe start there?

If what you mean is that, in your opinion, Israel’s prior actions mean it is not justified in doing anything that endangers non-combatants, then you really should just come out and say that.

Because “maybe start with inventing a time machine” isn’t doing anything here.

[ousdahl]

hey there hawk, you got any other war crimes you'd like to make excuses for?

Curious: Are you suggesting that this is a conspiracy theory and that Hamas did NOT set up operational headquarters in a hospital? Or are you suggesting that doing so is NOT a war crime on the part of Hamas?

Not to mention the important asymmetry of Israel being a state that is subject to international law (and needing to consider impacts on trade and other things)…and Hamas being nothing of the kind.

This is not so different from other conversations we’ve had, where the outsider has a massive advantage because the outsider doesn’t need to consider the same set of consequences.

who's gonna hold Israel responsible here? What international law might have jurisdiction? The ICC?

Israel has refrained from signing the Rome Statute because of its concerns about being the subject of prosecutions generating from the illegal status of the settlements in the Palestinian territories, which are considered by many to violate the Fourth Geneva convention.

https://asp.icc-cpi.int/sites/asp/files ... ay2011.pdf


moreover - and they/them keep pointing to this but I honestly dunno what to make of it - the United Nations says...

https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-184801/

Considering that the denial of the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people to self-determination, sovereignty, independence and return to Palestine and the brutal suppression by the Israeli forces of the heroic uprising, the intifadah, of the Palestinian population in the occupied territories, as well as the repeated Israeli aggression against the population of the region, constitute a serious threat to international peace and security...

Deeply concerned and alarmed at the deplorable consequences of Israel's continuing acts of aggression against Lebanon and its continuing occupation of parts of southern Lebanon, as well as its refusal to implement the relevant resolutions of the Security Council, in particular resolutions 425 (1978) of 19 March 1978,

1. Calls upon all States to implement fully and faithfully all the resolutions of the United Nations regarding the exercise of the right to self-determination and independence by peoples under colonial and foreign domination;

2. Reaffirms the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples for independence, territorial integrity, national unity and liberation from colonial domination, apartheid and foreign occupation by all available means, including armed struggle;

3. Reaffirms also the inalienable right of the Namibian people, the Palestinian people and all peoples under foreign occupation and colonial domination to self-determination, national independence, territorial integrity, national unity and sovereignty without foreign interference;

4. Strongly condemns those Governments that do not recognize the right to self-determination and independence of all peoples still under colonial domination, alien subjugation and foreign occupation, notably the peoples of Africa and the Palestinian people;

5. Calls upon Israel to refrain from deporting any Palestinian civilians from the occupied Palestinian territories and to release immediately all Palestinian detainees;

6. Strongly condemns the constant and deliberate violations of the fundamental rights of the Palestinian people, as well as the expansionist activities of Israel in the Middle East, which constitute an obstacle to the achievement of self-determination and independence by the Palestinian people and a threat to peace and stability in the region;

7. Urges all States, the specialized agencies and organizations of the United Nations system, as well as other international organizations, to extend their support to the Palestinian people through its sole and legitimate representative, the Palestine Liberation Organization, in its struggle to regain its right to self-determination and independence in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations;

now, I know you think it's not appropriate to attempt any comparisons to Ukraine, so let's not bother.

but, why in the world would the UN draw comparisons between Israel/Palestine and South Africa/Namibia?

[ousdahl]

Again, what is it you would have “condemnable” Israel do? Drop “we’re condemnable too but sorry anyway” leaflets not fewer than three business days prior to going after Hamas? Or go right to saying, out loud, that Hamas (and its backers) can do whatever they want to Israel, so long as they hide behind a functionally inexhaustible supply of human shields?

perhaps Israel could ease up on the apartheid treatment of Palestine in general. It's been described by human rights groups as an open-air prison, surrounded by walls and guard with shoot-to-kill orders, deprived of resources, subjected to constant raids and authoritarian brutality, one of the most surveilled places on earth, a humanitarian crisis that you yourself have described as a prime breeding ground for extremism.

Maybe start there?

If what you mean is that, in your opinion, Israel’s prior actions mean it is not justified in doing anything that endangers non-combatants, then you really should just come out and say that.

Because “maybe start with inventing a time machine” isn’t doing anything here.

well, considering "Israel's prior actions" largely means, plenty of things that "endangers non-combatants," it once again seems like you're boogeyman one side's actions while giving a pass to the other side.

Because, pretending the Hamas attack happened in some sort of vacuum isn't doing anything here, either.

[jfish26]

perhaps Israel could ease up on the apartheid treatment of Palestine in general. It's been described by human rights groups as an open-air prison, surrounded by walls and guard with shoot-to-kill orders, deprived of resources, subjected to constant raids and authoritarian brutality, one of the most surveilled places on earth, a humanitarian crisis that you yourself have described as a prime breeding ground for extremism.

Maybe start there?

If what you mean is that, in your opinion, Israel’s prior actions mean it is not justified in doing anything that endangers non-combatants, then you really should just come out and say that.

Because “maybe start with inventing a time machine” isn’t doing anything here.

well, considering "Israel's prior actions" largely means, plenty of things that "endangers non-combatants," it once again seems like you're boogeyman one side's actions while giving a pass to the other side.

Because, pretending the Hamas attack happened in some sort of vacuum isn't doing anything here, either.

If what you mean is that, in your opinion, Israel’s prior actions mean it is not justified in doing anything that endangers non-combatants, then you really should just come out and say that.

[ousdahl]

I don't think anyone is justified in doing anything that endangers non-combatants, then or now.

let's not pick and choose which civilian cannon fodder is condemnable and should be met with retaliation, and which civilian cannon fodder is like nbd and the victims should just learn to live with it cuz it advances our own imperial interests, or whatever.

Who do you think I am, you?!

[ousdahl]

(btw I'd be curious to hear some reactions to that ICC and UN stuff, and the South Africa comparisons)