Israel/Palestine

[mjl2]

FWIW, Israel says it was Palestinian Islamic Jihad, not Hamas.

[DCHawk1]

https://twitter.com/manniefabian/status ... 8131553446

[RainbowsandUnicorns]

The thing is - we know Israel wouldn't have intentionally done this, it would go horrendously against their own self interest.

I'm also of the understanding that neither a Hamas rocket nor a missile from an Israeli jet could cause that kind of explosion. Could be wrong.

Either way I would think that they should stop airstrikes until some kind of quick-as-possible investigation is done. Assuming that can be done within a day or two, but, like with the previous paragraph, not sure I know what I'm talking about.

This sounds snarky but isn't meant to: not sure how Israel is supposed to "investigate" this without, you know, sending armor into Gaza City.

I would say it's accounting for every missile that was fired and where it ended up.
Which now they say they've done and that it wasn't them.
I have no clue what to believe, other than, again, Israel has no motive to do this, and they're not bombing indiscriminately. The fact that there have been far more missiles than deaths in such an area proves that.

IF and that is a HUGE if, Israel did bomb the hospital, my hope is the only motive Israel would have for doing it would be if Hamas had a "headquarters" of some sort in the hospital.
I just don't see Israel purposely taking out a hospital. What possible benefit would there be to doing that?

[Sparko]

Interesting reading the information war in near-real time with Ous's posts. He is picking up exactly the talking points Hamas and their sponsors want. Really good effort.

[Sparko]

This sounds snarky but isn't meant to: not sure how Israel is supposed to "investigate" this without, you know, sending armor into Gaza City.

I would say it's accounting for every missile that was fired and where it ended up.
Which now they say they've done and that it wasn't them.
I have no clue what to believe, other than, again, Israel has no motive to do this, and they're not bombing indiscriminately. The fact that there have been far more missiles than deaths in such an area proves that.

IF and that is a HUGE if, Israel did bomb the hospital, my hope is the only motive Israel would have for doing it would be if Hamas had a "headquarters" of some sort in the hospital.
I just don't see Israel purposely taking out a hospital. What possible benefit would there be to doing that?

That is why Hamas is embedded in and near these things. Destroying a hospital is useful only to those trying to get at Israel and win the info war. But all those rockets and counter batteries are coming down somewhere too.

[DCHawk1]

Reuters reporting that Jordan has canceled meeting w/Biden, Abbas, etc.

[Shirley]

Reuters reporting that Jordan has canceled meeting w/Biden, Abbas, etc.

With the demonstrations there and all over the Middle East due to the hospital bombing, they probably couldn't guarantee security for those involved in the talks anyway.

And, like having the normalization negotiations between Israel and Saudi Arabia cancelled, who benefits from Biden's meeting(s) being cancelled?

Not Israel.

Not the Palestinians.

Not the US.

Iran/Hamas/Hezbollah.

Biden boarding the plane on TV.

[ousdahl]

How so?

ETA to gutter

"But, let’s roll with it, and assume Hamas did somehow get a bunch of long range missiles into one of the most intensely surveilled places in the world".

* My response....
A. You realize this happened in Gaza. Right?
B. So how/why would Hamas need to get a bunch of long range missiles (assumption) in to Gaza? Wouldn't they have already been there?
C. Hamas fires rockets from all over Gaza. Including near hospitals - for a reason.


"At the very least, it’s a testament to Israeli security being a clown show".

* My response....
A. What would/does Israeli security have to do with the "bombing" of a Hospital IN GAZA that MAY have been either an intentional or unintentional strike from a Hama rocket/missile/bomb?
B. Yes, Israeli security is far from perfect but if you/we were to "assume" Hamas was responsible, why would this be a testament of Israeli security being a "clown show"?

yea, I realized it was Gaza. But who knows man. Lots of misinformation out there. So who knows who bombed what, who's got what bombs and how and when and where they got them.

I guess I can't get over the thought that Gaza has been described by various journalists and human rights groups as an "open air prison," particularly in the last like 15 years or so since Hamas took control.

Regarding a clown show, that was in part a thought on how does anyone get long range missiles into a prison-type atmosphere, for this instance. And generally, how did a place like Gaza get enough weapons and strategic planning to stage the strike they did from that same prison atmosphere...heck, didn't mjl even post something indicating a majority of Israelis blamed the Netanyahu gummint for intelligence failures and not keeping the place safe enough, and maybe even calling for his removal?

But, if Gaza is not something along the lines of an open-air prison, please do correct me. I'd prefer to not believe it! But considering all the shit even the hawkiest pro-Israel posters haven't even denied - Israel cutting off food/water/power to Gaza, bombing civilian infrastructures (but with a nice friendly warning!), defense minister blanket calling them "human animals," shit like that - I fear it might really be, and has been, some kinda humanitarian crisis.

[ousdahl]

The thing is - we know Israel wouldn't have intentionally done this, it would go horrendously against their own self interest.

I'm also of the understanding that neither a Hamas rocket nor a missile from an Israeli jet could cause that kind of explosion. Could be wrong.

Either way I would think that they should stop airstrikes until some kind of quick-as-possible investigation is done. Assuming that can be done within a day or two, but, like with the previous paragraph, not sure I know what I'm talking about.

This sounds snarky but isn't meant to: not sure how Israel is supposed to "investigate" this without, you know, sending armor into Gaza City.

in an effort at objectivity and transparency, it’d have to something like a U.N. effort, right?

https://thehill.com/policy/internationa ... -conflict/

[Sparko]

Easy to be neutral when it solves nothing, but absolves you of everything.

[ousdahl]

https://www.businessinsider.com/netanya ... 023-10?amp

[RainbowsandUnicorns]

Benny and Yosef speak.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/1 ... dn-vpx.cnn

[jfish26]

It is apparent from daylight photos of the Gaza hospital that the damage is not consistent with a bomb or heavy missile. It is apparent that most of the damage is from fire.

[Shirley]

-Those alleged progressives who downplay or celebrate the atrocities committed by Hamas are motiviated not by concern about the Palestinian people but by hatred of Jews. Large numbers of Palestinian civilian deaths and deepening the conflict are features not bugs of Hamas's plan.

Mitchell Minute 1695-Hamas Atrocities Do Not Help the Palestinian People

[Shirley]

It is apparent from daylight photos of the Gaza hospital that the damage is not consistent with a bomb or heavy missile. It is apparent that most of the damage is from fire.

An intersting thread on the topic:

...Photos of the aftermath show that the vast majority of the damage is from fire. Only 3 cars show any clear sign of kinnetic/structural damage. And for two of them, the general structure remains intact - despite clear damage.

[RainbowsandUnicorns]

How so?

ETA to gutter

"But, let’s roll with it, and assume Hamas did somehow get a bunch of long range missiles into one of the most intensely surveilled places in the world".

* My response....
A. You realize this happened in Gaza. Right?
B. So how/why would Hamas need to get a bunch of long range missiles (assumption) in to Gaza? Wouldn't they have already been there?
C. Hamas fires rockets from all over Gaza. Including near hospitals - for a reason.


"At the very least, it’s a testament to Israeli security being a clown show".

* My response....
A. What would/does Israeli security have to do with the "bombing" of a Hospital IN GAZA that MAY have been either an intentional or unintentional strike from a Hama rocket/missile/bomb?
B. Yes, Israeli security is far from perfect but if you/we were to "assume" Hamas was responsible, why would this be a testament of Israeli security being a "clown show"?

yea, I realized it was Gaza. But who knows man. Lots of misinformation out there. So who knows who bombed what, who's got what bombs and how and when and where they got them.

I guess I can't get over the thought that Gaza has been described by various journalists and human rights groups as an "open air prison," particularly in the last like 15 years or so since Hamas took control.

Regarding a clown show, that was in part a thought on how does anyone get long range missiles into a prison-type atmosphere, for this instance. And generally, how did a place like Gaza get enough weapons and strategic planning to stage the strike they did from that same prison atmosphere...heck, didn't mjl even post something indicating a majority of Israelis blamed the Netanyahu gummint for intelligence failures and not keeping the place safe enough, and maybe even calling for his removal?

But, if Gaza is not something along the lines of an open-air prison, please do correct me. I'd prefer to not believe it! But considering all the shit even the hawkiest pro-Israel posters haven't even denied - Israel cutting off food/water/power to Gaza, bombing civilian infrastructures (but with a nice friendly warning!), defense minister blanket calling them "human animals," shit like that - I fear it might really be, and has been, some kinda humanitarian crisis.

I now better understand your clown show comment. From my limited understanding, the weapons are "smuggled" in to Gaza. Yes, one might think Israel could and should be able to monitor what goes in to (and out of) Gaza. My UNeducated guess is much/many of the "weapons" come through Egypt in the guise of something other than "weapons".

As far as how one chooses to define Gaza, my co-worker who was there just a few weeks ago shared many photos with me. Not "prison" photos. Maybe "open air prison" simply means "fenced" in and not so free to enter and exit? Analogies are fine and I have no doubt some (many? most?) of the people of Gaza feel as if they have been in an "open air prison" for the past 15 years. Maybe Egypt bears some responsibility in that? It's complicated and I don't know.
While being in any prison sucks, there is BIG difference between being in a prison the size of 140 square miles in which you can move about and has some beautiful scenery and being in a prison in which you are locked in a cell 23 hours a day.

As the video I provided a few days ago explains, Hamas is more responsible for the lack of water in Gaza than Israel is. I might go so far as to say they are more responsible for the lack of food and electricity too.
What many feel is "propaganda" is not just lip service. Israel's goal isn't to bomb and kill innocent civilians. Yes, it would be wonderful if Israel was more discriminate when bombing but as I said in the past, Israel basically cares more about Gaza residents than Hamas does.

The Israeli defense minister said the Israelis were fighting against "human animals" in reference to Hamas. Do you not feel they are "human animals"? I sure do.

[Shirley]

IDF Spokesperson RAdm. Daniel Hagari, briefs about the Islamic Jihad’s strike on the hospital in Gaza City on the night of Tuesday, October 17

[DCHawk1]

I don't want to go full "enemy of the people" here, but the media has a LOT to answer for -- with real-life consequences as a result.

[ousdahl]

I find the “human animal” language disturbing, particularly coming from someone ranking as high up as defense minister.

I also find the prime minister’s office reposting quotes from the prime minister himself using rhetoric of “children of darkness” and “the jungle” to be, like the “human animals” language, disturbing too…and among other things, well - RACIST AS FUCK.

There’s historical precedent for this sort of language being used by gummint officials, and it’s not pretty.

[ousdahl]

I don't want to go full "enemy of the people" here, but the media has a LOT to answer for -- with real-life consequences as a result.

For real.

It’d be nice if journalists would do more actual journalism here, rather than taking these “well one (obviously biased) source says…” sorts of hot takes and running with it.