Israel/Palestine

[mjl2]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... sfire.html

"Killed hundreds"

They're still taking Hamas at their word.

[KUTradition]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... sfire.html

"Killed hundreds"

They're still taking Hamas at their word.

right?

there has been near zero verification of the number killed, at least as far as i’ve seen

i posted that more so for the evidence that Israel was providing…perhaps i should’ve quoted it specifically

[Shirley]

From the Israeli Defense Forces
Oct 18, 2023
WARNING: This video contains extremely graphic footage recovered from the Hamas invasion and massacre in southern Israel on October 7th, 2023.

GRAPHIC RAW FOOTAGE: Massacre Across Israel From the Eyes of Hamas

[jfish26]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... sfire.html

"Killed hundreds"

They're still taking Hamas at their word.

Indiscriminately, one might say.

[mjl2]

A passed UN resolution does what specifically?
Are you under the impression that either side would honor it?

From 2009: https://www.npr.org/2009/01/09/99175040 ... -fire-call

"Israel and Hamas have ignored a U.N. Security Council call for an immediate cease-fire. Israel continued attacks in Gaza and Hamas kept up with its rocketing of Israel. Meanwhile, U.N. officials said they plan to resume aid to Gaza as soon as practical."

The fact that Russia still has a permanent (unelected) seat on the UN's Security Council is a good gauge for how seriously to take it at the moment.

100% Agreed.

The bigger concern I would have is if both sides actually did abide by it. It means that Hamas, like Israel during the first ceasefire in 48, can just re-arm, and once they do, this happens all over again.

This cycle needs to end. Hamas needs to go.

(No, I have no idea how that would actually work. The only thing I could think of is put the PA in charge with security assistance from Israel so that Hamas doesn't kill and remove them again)

[DCHawk1]

The fact that Russia still has a permanent (unelected) seat on the UN's Security Council is a good gauge for how seriously to take it at the moment.

Or ever.

[twocoach]

From the Israeli Defense Forces
Oct 18, 2023
WARNING: This video contains extremely graphic footage recovered from the Hamas invasion and massacre in southern Israel on October 7th, 2023.

GRAPHIC RAW FOOTAGE: Massacre Across Israel From the Eyes of Hamas

I mean, do we really need to see that?

[ousdahl]

Man, how am I an example of the consequences of irresponsible reporting?

Cuz I tried for a “roll with it” floating the idea that maybe the nation that even mjl and DC don’t deny bombs hospitals, might suddenly NOT be the ones who bombed a hospital?

And what’s the evidence of Israel’s regard for civilian casualties? That the offer a warning before doing things like bomb hospitals?

(And residences. And UN schools. And pay no mind to all the civilians who say they never received any warning.)

Fish what’s your reaction to the ICC and UN stuff?

On this topic and on Ukraine, you do this thing where you kick up a cloud of dust as a way to avoid or obscure a very simple point.

Yesterday, you said this:

Man, all that “hospital damage was Hamas” seems once again pretty gaslighty. as if Israel is NOT indiscriminately bombing the fuck out of Gaza either way.

By describing the notion of Hamas' potential role in damaging the hospital as something that "seems once again pretty gaslighty," you (once again, if you like that phrase) adopt unsubstantiated talking points that are favorable to the aggressor's side of the conflict.

I tried for a “roll with it” floating the idea that maybe the nation that even mjl and DC don’t deny bombs hospitals, might suddenly NOT be the ones who bombed a hospital?

please don't act like I'm going pro-Hamas just cuz you're so willing to beer bong anything Israel claims as undisputed fact, especially when there's LOTS of precedent here, specifically even of Israel bombing hospitals!

That's the same thing as what you do on Ukraine things, when people (correctly) point out that you routinely adopt pro-Putin talking points (for example, leaving room for at least partial justification for Russia's aggression, because nazis or something).

this you?

You are wrong to compare this situation to Ukraine in this way.

(and again, I'm just not sure anyone's correctly pointed out much of anything about Russia and Ukraine)

And then today, you said this:

It’d be nice if journalists would do more actual journalism here, rather than taking these “well one (obviously biased) source says…” sorts of hot takes and running with it.

Can you not see that you fell yesterday for the "sorts of hot takes" that today you are warning us against?

precisely what "hot take" do you think I fell for?

please be specific.

[ousdahl]

howsabout this doozy!



now, I know I know, it's just another kooky hot take from some unverified blah blah blah.

as far as I can tell, it's a satire piece from a Welsh newspaper, apparently first published in 2014, back when a certain Israel was warring with a certain Gaza. I don't know that for sure, but I DO know it's been floating around the internet for at least 9 years.

...but I guess it's totally irrelevant today, right?

[MICHHAWK]

what are the odds the middle east blow’s it’s self off the map. wouldn’t that be cool.

[ousdahl]

you do this thing where you kick up a cloud of dust as a way to avoid or obscure a very simple point.

bro prove to me it's not actually YOU trying to obscure very simple points, and stop dodging this one:

what do you think of the UN comparing Palestine to South Africa? And even saying Palestine has a right to resist its occupiers, with armed struggle if necessary?

lemme guess: you'd rather just go full michhawk about the UN, like is already happening here?

and, bonus points for this other one you've avoided:

what do you think of Israel refusing to sign the Rome statue out of concerns the ICC might try to prosecute them?

[jfish26]

you do this thing where you kick up a cloud of dust as a way to avoid or obscure a very simple point.

bro prove to me it's not actually YOU trying to obscure very simple points, and stop dodging this one:

what do you think of the UN comparing Palestine to South Africa? And even saying Palestine has a right to resist its occupiers, with armed struggle if necessary?

lemme guess: you'd rather just go full michhawk about the UN, like is already happening here?

and, bonus points for this other one you've avoided:

what do you think of Israel refusing to sign the Rome statue out of concerns the ICC might try to prosecute them?

I have nowhere near enough frame of reference to answer these questions about South Africa or the Rome statute or the ICC. I have no opinion.

[ousdahl]

Nice cloud of dust bro.

[TDub]

"please be specific" while being vague and overarching and glazing over huge huge swaths of issues full of nuance is one of my favorite Q-isms.

[ousdahl]

welp, guess this settles it:

https://www.theonion.com/israel-militar ... 1850939156

[jfish26]

Man, how am I an example of the consequences of irresponsible reporting?

Cuz I tried for a “roll with it” floating the idea that maybe the nation that even mjl and DC don’t deny bombs hospitals, might suddenly NOT be the ones who bombed a hospital?

And what’s the evidence of Israel’s regard for civilian casualties? That the offer a warning before doing things like bomb hospitals?

(And residences. And UN schools. And pay no mind to all the civilians who say they never received any warning.)

Fish what’s your reaction to the ICC and UN stuff?

On this topic and on Ukraine, you do this thing where you kick up a cloud of dust as a way to avoid or obscure a very simple point.

Yesterday, you said this:

Man, all that “hospital damage was Hamas” seems once again pretty gaslighty. as if Israel is NOT indiscriminately bombing the fuck out of Gaza either way.

By describing the notion of Hamas' potential role in damaging the hospital as something that "seems once again pretty gaslighty," you (once again, if you like that phrase) adopt unsubstantiated talking points that are favorable to the aggressor's side of the conflict.

I tried for a “roll with it” floating the idea that maybe the nation that even mjl and DC don’t deny bombs hospitals, might suddenly NOT be the ones who bombed a hospital?

please don't act like I'm going pro-Hamas just cuz you're so willing to beer bong anything Israel claims as undisputed fact, especially when there's LOTS of precedent here, specifically even of Israel bombing hospitals!

I’m not saying you ARE pro-Hamas. I’m saying Hamas would read a lot of what you post and think you’re pro-Hamas.

That's the same thing as what you do on Ukraine things, when people (correctly) point out that you routinely adopt pro-Putin talking points (for example, leaving room for at least partial justification for Russia's aggression, because nazis or something).

this you?

You are wrong to compare this situation to Ukraine in this way.

(and again, I'm just not sure anyone's correctly pointed out much of anything about Russia and Ukraine)

I didn’t say there aren’t comparisons to be made. I said, in a specific context, that you were wrong to compare a specific situation to Ukraine in the specific way you did it.

And then today, you said this:

It’d be nice if journalists would do more actual journalism here, rather than taking these “well one (obviously biased) source says…” sorts of hot takes and running with it.

Can you not see that you fell yesterday for the "sorts of hot takes" that today you are warning us against?

precisely what "hot take" do you think I fell for?

please be specific.

It was right there in the post you’ve been trying to kick up dust to run away from! You described reports of Hamas’ potential responsibility for the hospital explosion/fire as “pretty gaslighty”. You also described Israel as bombing Gaza “indiscriminately,” and that sort of hyperbole is quite clearly hot-takey.

Please see above.

[jfish26]

Nice cloud of dust bro.

It’s not a cloud of dust! It’s me saying I don’t feel I have a good enough grasp on the issues to barf out an opinion on them!

It’s ok to admit when you’re out of your depth - which I am, on those things you’re demanding answers to.

[ousdahl]

Ok.

(And yet, if the UN said Russia was committing apartheid on Ukraine, pretty sure you wouldn’t be able to find enough pearls to clutch)

But fair enough.

Pretty sure we’re all out of depth here, yet somehow still experts in geopolitical conflicts.

If I offered sources to indicate Israel has gaslit about war crimes before, and/or admits to a rather indiscriminate approach to bombing Gaza, would you even read them?

[DCHawk1]

yikes

[mjl2]

what are the odds the middle east blow’s it’s self off the map. wouldn’t that be cool.

Fuck you