Israel/Palestine

[ousdahl]

Dude, again, I’m not going for hyperbole! I think the word applies!

You’re doubling down on semantics and fussing about “hyperbole” and giving all the benefit of the doubt to a radical militant ethno-religious gummint, trying to argue they’re being at least somewhat discriminating by offering the evidence that…

…wait for it…

at least they didn’t drop a nuke.

But please, do go on about how I’m the hyperbolic one.

More hyperbole.

I explicitly set aside the ability Israel does have to level all of Gaza with nuclear weapons. It's right there in words and everything. I did that SO THAT no mistake could be made about what I meant by, "Israel clearly has capacity for doing a LOT more damage than it has chosen to do. Whether you like it or not, that means Israel is in fact being at least somewhat discriminating."

But now, hyperbolically, you straw man me by arguing against something I clearly and intentionally did not say. I did not say "at least they didn't drop a nuke." But, for whatever reason, you need to say that I said that, in order to make the point you want to make.

This is EXACTLY why I said that hyperbole weakens and cheapens your points. If you have to resort to hyperbole (or straw man arguments), it suggests you need rhetorical tricks to make your points. I don't think you do. And so I wish you wouldn't.

forgive me for phrasing "at least they didn't drop a nuke" in a way you felt is appropriate.
what you did say, copy-and-pasted verbatim, is this:

I will add, though, that even setting aside the literal nuclear option, Israel clearly has capacity for doing a LOT more damage than it has chosen to do. Whether you like it or not, that means Israel is in fact being at least somewhat discriminating.

I read that as, you think Israel is in fact being at least somewhat discriminating (in their bombing of Gaza) because even setting aside the nuclear option, Israel clearly has capacity for doing a lot more damage than it has chosen to do.

So, forgive me if perhaps I took you as hyperbolic in mentioning even setting aside the nuclear option offered as fact that Israel is being at least somewhat discriminating in their attacks.

[DCHawk1]

If Q hadn't bravely rebelled against all things connected to the Church when they told him it was a sin to pull his pud, he might know that there is a long tradition in Western Civilization, derived from the work of Saints Augustine and Thomas Aquinas, laying out the morality both of taking military action (jus ad bellum) and of behavior during war (jus in bello). And if he knew that then he'd also know that for at least three millennia, civilized people have agreed that the moral responsibility for civilian deaths in war lies exclusively with those who put them in harm's way, ESPECIALLY IF THEY DO SO PURPOSEFULLY.

Israel is not attacking indiscriminately, and it is not unjustly or immorally killing innocents. The blood spilled in Gaza stains the hands of the leaders of Hamas -- and no one else.

if my views were as hawkishly Islamophobic as yours, I'd come up with shit like this to help myself sleep at night too.

LOL

[zsn]

I’m not sure what the possible solutions are to end the cycle of violence and human suffering, on both sides. However, to my (somewhat distant) point of view in following what is reported in the news - I have no immediate friends/relatives on either side - whatever Israel is doing isn’t going to result in anything meaningful.

What Israel is currently doing is exactly the recipe for how you create several more generations of adversaries.

[jfish26]

I’m not sure what the possible solutions are to end the cycle of violence and human suffering, on both sides. However, to my (somewhat distant) point of view in following what is reported in the news - I have no immediate friends/relatives on either side - whatever Israel is doing isn’t going to result in anything meaningful.

What Israel is currently doing is exactly the recipe for how you create several more generations of adversaries.

I'm at LEAST as far removed as you, possibly more. But the two-state solution seems, just in terms of logic and common sense, to be the single thing with the most promise.

[DCHawk1]

Best statement so far:

https://imightbewrong.substack.com/p/wi ... dium=email

[ousdahl]

I’m not sure what the possible solutions are to end the cycle of violence and human suffering, on both sides. However, to my (somewhat distant) point of view in following what is reported in the news - I have no immediate friends/relatives on either side - whatever Israel is doing isn’t going to result in anything meaningful.

What Israel is currently doing is exactly the recipe for how you create several more generations of adversaries.

I'm at LEAST as far removed as you, possibly more. But the two-state solution seems, just in terms of logic and common sense, to be the single thing with the most promise.

Just for the sake of discussion, and not meant as shitposty…

I’m pretty sure the criticism of a two-state solution for Israel and Palestine is similar to the criticism of a two-state solution for Russia and Ukraine.

[jfish26]

I’m not sure what the possible solutions are to end the cycle of violence and human suffering, on both sides. However, to my (somewhat distant) point of view in following what is reported in the news - I have no immediate friends/relatives on either side - whatever Israel is doing isn’t going to result in anything meaningful.

What Israel is currently doing is exactly the recipe for how you create several more generations of adversaries.

I'm at LEAST as far removed as you, possibly more. But the two-state solution seems, just in terms of logic and common sense, to be the single thing with the most promise.

Just for the sake of discussion, and not meant as shitposty…

I’m pretty sure the criticism of a two-state solution for Israel and Palestine is similar to the criticism of a two-state solution for Russia and Ukraine.

I'm not 100% sure what that means.

[zsn]

I’m not sure what the possible solutions are to end the cycle of violence and human suffering, on both sides. However, to my (somewhat distant) point of view in following what is reported in the news - I have no immediate friends/relatives on either side - whatever Israel is doing isn’t going to result in anything meaningful.

What Israel is currently doing is exactly the recipe for how you create several more generations of adversaries.

I'm at LEAST as far removed as you, possibly more. But the two-state solution seems, just in terms of logic and common sense, to be the single thing with the most promise.

Hasn’t the “two-state solution” been on the table for at least 30 years? As I recall, both sides (present Israeli government excluded) sort of accepted this in principle as well. However, I believe we’re here because no one can agree to which border the two states would have - some want 1948, some 1967, some don’t want to give up anything.

[KUTradition]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/ ... 392141007/

[ousdahl]

I'm at LEAST as far removed as you, possibly more. But the two-state solution seems, just in terms of logic and common sense, to be the single thing with the most promise.

Just for the sake of discussion, and not meant as shitposty…

I’m pretty sure the criticism of a two-state solution for Israel and Palestine is similar to the criticism of a two-state solution for Russia and Ukraine.

I'm not 100% sure what that means.

Isn’t a criticism of a two-state solution to the Russia/Ukraine conflict, that Ukraine shouldn’t have to concede one inch to Russia?

Pretty sure that’s how Palestinians feel about Israel.

Plus, the fact that two neighboring states that are historic and current rivals, prob aren’t gonna quit fighting just cuz of some new lines on a map.

[RainbowsandUnicorns]

Took this photo (see below) this morning. It's on Chicago Avenue near the Museum of Contemporary Art and across the street from Northwestern Hospital where both the "Women's Hospital" and "Children's Hospital" are located.
I had mixed feelings.
One thing that bothers me is that no matter how you slice it, it's an example of defacing "public" property. I'm against that. That being said, I kind of wanted to stick around and see who if anyone would remove them. I thought about how I would respond. I like to think I would begin by simply asking why they were removing the posters. If the person was respectful in their response, I would be respectful back. Perhaps even try and have a conversation with them. If the person was disrespectful with their response, I would tell them that there are lucky I don't blow their fucking head off.

I assume some of you have seen the video of the dumbfuck wearing the Polo Ralph Lauren hoodie who continuously said fuck you to someone who asked her why she was removing posters. She included saying a "fuck Israel". I would have told her that she's too fucking stupid to realize Ralph Lauren is a Jew and and that his company has made "humanitarian" donations in the past month.

[jfish26]

Just for the sake of discussion, and not meant as shitposty…

I’m pretty sure the criticism of a two-state solution for Israel and Palestine is similar to the criticism of a two-state solution for Russia and Ukraine.

I'm not 100% sure what that means.

Isn’t a criticism of a two-state solution to the Russia/Ukraine conflict, that Ukraine shouldn’t have to concede one inch to Russia?

Pretty sure that’s how Palestinians feel about Israel.

Plus, the fact that two neighboring states that are historic and current rivals, prob aren’t gonna quit fighting just cuz of some new lines on a map.

...and probably how Israelis feel about Palestinians also?

[Overlander]

If the person was disrespectful with their response, I would tell them that there are lucky I don't blow their fucking head off.

I bet they had no idea just how close to actually doing absolutely nothing you were.
Lucky bastards.

[ousdahl]

I'm not 100% sure what that means.

Isn’t a criticism of a two-state solution to the Russia/Ukraine conflict, that Ukraine shouldn’t have to concede one inch to Russia?

Pretty sure that’s how Palestinians feel about Israel.

Plus, the fact that two neighboring states that are historic and current rivals, prob aren’t gonna quit fighting just cuz of some new lines on a map.

...and probably how Israelis feel about Palestinians also?

Yea, probably.

With the difference being, the Israeli claim to this land largely comes from being violently displaced like 3000 years ago, right? Is that an appropriate take?

The Palestinian claim to places like Gaza, like the Ukrainian claim to places like Crimea, comes from being violently displaced…a little more contemporaneously?


*ducks*

ETA at the very least, it’s prob cause for concern about a two-state solution

[DCHawk1]

My God.

[ousdahl]

so is that not an appropriate take?

[DCHawk1]

It's maybe the most ignorant thing you've ever posted. You clearly know nothing about the history of the region or the conflict.

And no, I won't teach you.

[ousdahl]

Okay then.

It would be easier to take you seriously if you weren’t so shamelessly condescending.

Enjoy your ethnic cleansing.

[RainbowsandUnicorns]

If the person was disrespectful with their response, I would tell them that there are lucky I don't blow their fucking head off.

I bet they had no idea just how close to actually doing absolutely nothing you were.
Lucky bastards.

Should have replaced the word don't with won't.
I typically don't/won't threaten people in any way - if all they do is mouth off to me.
That being said, I admit I have overreacted to asshole/s behavior more than once.

Moving on....

The Israeli military is getting ripped a new asshole for killing civilians who didn't leave a "refugee camp" - despite being forewarned. Of course it's not so easy for "poor people" to just pick up and leave with nowhere to go but poor or not, what did they think was going to happen if they stayed? Unfortunately they found out the hard and tragic way. Meanwhile, while perhaps a bit crass, the Israeli military is certainly not celebrating the death/s of the civilians.

[ousdahl]

just thinking about it, perhaps my ignorance was in discounting the fact there's been Jewish people, and a Jewish struggle, in the land we now call the nation of Israel in the 3000 years since the exile. That's something that shouldn't be discounted.

cuz the thing is, I really don't mean to be ignorant, and when I'm accused of as much, I at least try to learn from it in a way that might offset any ignorance.

I dunno. Anyone else's DC decoder ring working?