Vick

[Deleted User 75]

SVI brought a positive attitude and integrity. He brought effort and professionalism. He was a positive locker room presence. As far as I know he tried hard in the classroom. These are students after all.

None of those things show up in a box score.

SVI is FAR superior to Vick.

[PhDhawk]

whether Vick comes back or not, I will root against pdub in life.

[pdub]

I bet Evan Manning was all those things too.

[Deleted User 75]

SVI plays in the NBA. Evan and Vick don't/won't.

[pdub]

Perry won't play in the nba.
He was superior than Svi.

[Deleted User 75]

Oh boy.

Svi and Vick play the same position, so it's a worthwhile and genuine comparison.

You dismissed some of Svi's positive characteristics because Evan Manning was those things too. That's ridiculous.

[pdub]

And agree with twocoach.
He had an epic performance in the Duke game but for the most of his career, Svi was bad on defense.

[Deleted User 75]

...but I'm with you Vick helped more than he hurt over his 3.75 years. That was my original post.

The argument has morphed a bit. Into whatever is happening.

[Deleted User 75]

And agree with twocoach.
He had an epic performance in the Duke game but for the most of his career, Svi was bad on defense.

Yes. That's a fact.

I think the difference is that while neither Vick or Svi were good defenders Svi tried hard. Everybody loves the try hard chart. Vick stinks at giving consistent effort.

[jfish26]

Isn't the real point of all of this that, by the time Vick left (or was kicked out, whatever fits your worldview is fine), he was hurting more than helping?

Or, I should say, whether that was the case?

I certainly think that was the case. And I think our play since then supports this conclusion.

[pdub]

We will see.
We have Tech and ksu up next.
We have beaten the two worst teams in the B12 at home and were seconds away from loosing to TCU.
I dont think Vick changes any of those results for the worse.

[PhDhawk]

He certainly played poorly against KSU. But I rmemeber thinking he'd played well against TTU the game prior.

I also am hesitant to give Vick's absence all the credit for how we've played in the time he's been gone. I think a strong argument can be made that team chemistry, or overall pay has improved. But...we've also played two bigs, which I think helps out a ton, Dotson has played really well, and I think that's part of his own progression. Agbaji improves like something from a comic book character discovering his super powers. We've run things to get Lawson better looks. Most of us pay more attention to offense and that looks better without Garrett playing.

So...I think there are a lot of things at play for why we've looked better, and not all of them are directly due to Vick.

[NDballer13]

What did svi bring to the table other than scoring?
Vicks rebounding numbers and assist numbers are better than Svis.
4 RPG isn't bad for a guard.

You're missing context again. Sure, 4 RPG for a guard might not be bad, but it's not good in a 4-guard lineup when you are the most athletic of the guards. His rebounding was better when they were playing 2 bigs as opposed to 4 guards. How is that possible?

Svi brought defensive effort. Marvin Bagley had 16/10 being guarded almost exclusively by Svi. Sure, they doubled, but the primary defender in that game was Svi. Svi could also feed the post and dribble the ball more than 3 times without throwing it off his knee.

Oh, my. Svi's entire history transformed based on his performance against Duke.

He was a terrible defender mocked endlessly here for his slow foot speed and reaction time. But he did have a good defensive game vs. Duke so he brought "defensive effort".

And I watched us lose at home to both Arizona State and Texas Tech last year, fueled by numerous runoits on turnovers where Svi simply lost the ball trying to turn the corner on drives to the rim. He had notoriously loose handles but again, his big shot vs. Duke suddenly has him remembered as some sort of good ball handler? Must be nice.

That's why I was nice and said effort and not he brought defense. I know he was far from a lockdown defender, but you never questioned if he was fully invested into the game. The Duke game was just a perfect example of that. Dude busted his ass on the defensive side and didn't put up big offensive numbers. If Vick doesn't put up offensive numbers you might as well chalk his man up for 20 that night. Svi didn't let his shooting performance dictate the rest of his game.

[CrimsonNBlue]

You're missing context again. Sure, 4 RPG for a guard might not be bad, but it's not good in a 4-guard lineup when you are the most athletic of the guards. His rebounding was better when they were playing 2 bigs as opposed to 4 guards. How is that possible?

Svi brought defensive effort. Marvin Bagley had 16/10 being guarded almost exclusively by Svi. Sure, they doubled, but the primary defender in that game was Svi. Svi could also feed the post and dribble the ball more than 3 times without throwing it off his knee.

Oh, my. Svi's entire history transformed based on his performance against Duke.

He was a terrible defender mocked endlessly here for his slow foot speed and reaction time. But he did have a good defensive game vs. Duke so he brought "defensive effort".

And I watched us lose at home to both Arizona State and Texas Tech last year, fueled by numerous runoits on turnovers where Svi simply lost the ball trying to turn the corner on drives to the rim. He had notoriously loose handles but again, his big shot vs. Duke suddenly has him remembered as some sort of good ball handler? Must be nice.

That's why I was nice and said effort and not he brought defense. I know he was far from a lockdown defender, but you never questioned if he was fully invested into the game. The Duke game was just a perfect example of that. Dude busted his ass on the defensive side and didn't put up big offensive numbers. If Vick doesn't put up offensive numbers you might as well chalk his man up for 20 that night. Svi didn't let his shooting performance dictate the rest of his game.

It's certainly true that some games will elevate a player into the legendary.

But, in general, it makes no sense that Svi has become a whipping boy in a discussion that has absolutely nothing to do with him. It's quite weird.

[CrimsonNBlue]

He certainly played poorly against KSU. But I rmemeber thinking he'd played well against TTU the game prior.

I also am hesitant to give Vick's absence all the credit for how we've played in the time he's been gone. I think a strong argument can be made that team chemistry, or overall pay has improved. But...we've also played two bigs, which I think helps out a ton, Dotson has played really well, and I think that's part of his own progression. Agbaji improves like something from a comic book character discovering his super powers. We've run things to get Lawson better looks. Most of us pay more attention to offense and that looks better without Garrett playing.

So...I think there are a lot of things at play for why we've looked better, and not all of them are directly due to Vick.

Certainly all of that. But, Self sure does seem to be in a better mood.

Ball seems to move a lot better now. I also said before and still believe that Dotson should have been given the keys to the team a lot sooner before. That's also related to Vick.

[PhDhawk]

There are plenty of things to be critical of Vick for.

But let's be honest, inconsistent scoring is pretty much the norm for recent KU wings. There are a lot people shitting their pants over the fact that Vick was an inconsistent scorer. I'll shit my pants the next time we have a wing who is actually a consistent scorer. Wings being inconsistent IS the norm in Self's offense...so the over the top criticism of Vick for doing something almost everyone at his position has done looks like people lashing out at a player that they're mad at.

Maybe staying mad at Vick for things that are Vick specific and not a system issue would keep other players names out of the mud.

[PhDhawk]

He certainly played poorly against KSU. But I rmemeber thinking he'd played well against TTU the game prior.

I also am hesitant to give Vick's absence all the credit for how we've played in the time he's been gone. I think a strong argument can be made that team chemistry, or overall pay has improved. But...we've also played two bigs, which I think helps out a ton, Dotson has played really well, and I think that's part of his own progression. Agbaji improves like something from a comic book character discovering his super powers. We've run things to get Lawson better looks. Most of us pay more attention to offense and that looks better without Garrett playing.

So...I think there are a lot of things at play for why we've looked better, and not all of them are directly due to Vick.

Certainly all of that. But, Self sure does seem to be in a better mood.

Ball seems to move a lot better now. I also said before and still believe that Dotson should have been given the keys to the team a lot sooner before. That's also related to Vick.

That seems like more of an issue between Self and Dotson than Vick.

If anything, Dotson being more ball dominant is probably contributed to Vick's production decline. Had Vick handled it better, the team might be in an even better spot...but I don't think that would stop people from getting pissed at Vick every time he only attempted 6 shots.

[CrimsonNBlue]

He certainly played poorly against KSU. But I rmemeber thinking he'd played well against TTU the game prior.

I also am hesitant to give Vick's absence all the credit for how we've played in the time he's been gone. I think a strong argument can be made that team chemistry, or overall pay has improved. But...we've also played two bigs, which I think helps out a ton, Dotson has played really well, and I think that's part of his own progression. Agbaji improves like something from a comic book character discovering his super powers. We've run things to get Lawson better looks. Most of us pay more attention to offense and that looks better without Garrett playing.

So...I think there are a lot of things at play for why we've looked better, and not all of them are directly due to Vick.

Certainly all of that. But, Self sure does seem to be in a better mood.

Ball seems to move a lot better now. I also said before and still believe that Dotson should have been given the keys to the team a lot sooner before. That's also related to Vick.

That seems like more of an issue between Self and Dotson than Vick.

If anything, Dotson being more ball dominant is probably contributed to Vick's production decline. Had Vick handled it better, the team might be in an even better spot...but I don't think that would stop people from getting pissed at Vick every time he only attempted 6 shots.

True. Self should have done it from the beginning. I can only assume what the locker room was like, but my assumption is that Bill gave Vick the chance to be the dog, when it should have been the mature beyond his years frosh PG all along. It's true that that has set us back and would have regardless if Vick were in the lineup or not.

[NDballer13]

Oh, my. Svi's entire history transformed based on his performance against Duke.

He was a terrible defender mocked endlessly here for his slow foot speed and reaction time. But he did have a good defensive game vs. Duke so he brought "defensive effort".

And I watched us lose at home to both Arizona State and Texas Tech last year, fueled by numerous runoits on turnovers where Svi simply lost the ball trying to turn the corner on drives to the rim. He had notoriously loose handles but again, his big shot vs. Duke suddenly has him remembered as some sort of good ball handler? Must be nice.

That's why I was nice and said effort and not he brought defense. I know he was far from a lockdown defender, but you never questioned if he was fully invested into the game. The Duke game was just a perfect example of that. Dude busted his ass on the defensive side and didn't put up big offensive numbers. If Vick doesn't put up offensive numbers you might as well chalk his man up for 20 that night. Svi didn't let his shooting performance dictate the rest of his game.

It's certainly true that some games will elevate a player into the legendary.

But, in general, it makes no sense that Svi has become a whipping boy in a discussion that has absolutely nothing to do with him. It's quite weird.

That's something you'd have to ask the guy who brought Svi into it about.

[PhDhawk]

I think Vick is ultimately responsible for all his own actions.

But man, Self really seems to have taken a lot of missteps with this team, including handling Vick, which may go back all the way to letting him back on the team, not to mention roster decisions, handling of players, schemes, playing time, etc. I guess hindsight is 20/20, and maybe those decisions made the most sense at the time, but we've been zigging and zagging a lot to correct for things.