Vick

[CrimsonNBlue]

I think Vick is ultimately responsible for all his own actions.

But man, Self really seems to have taken a lot of missteps with this team, including handling Vick, which may go back all the way to letting him back on the team, not to mention roster decisions, handling of players, schemes, playing time, etc. I guess hindsight is 20/20, and maybe those decisions made the most sense at the time, but we've been zigging and zagging a lot to correct for things.

Bill has mishandled the GM portion of his job pretty severely for the 2018, 2019 and 2020 seasons.

I do think he's still an old college ball coach, though, and he continues to give 2nd/3rd chances. I'd say most of his players respond positively to that, but when one of them doesn't, it seems like it catches him by surprise.

I fully believe the adidas trial greatly hurt our chances with Romeo Langford. The fallout from unconfirmed testimony by a bagboy is staggering.

[NDballer13]

I think Vick is ultimately responsible for all his own actions.

But man, Self really seems to have taken a lot of missteps with this team, including handling Vick, which may go back all the way to letting him back on the team, not to mention roster decisions, handling of players, schemes, playing time, etc. I guess hindsight is 20/20, and maybe those decisions made the most sense at the time, but we've been zigging and zagging a lot to correct for things.

I wish I could have seen what Ochai looked like in summer scrimmages. If he was even a fraction of what he has turned out to be over the last month, blame has to be put on Self for thinking a redshirt was best for him. If he had the mindset that Ochai was going to be an impact rotational player, even as a 6th/7th man, I have a hard time believing he would have granted Vick a conditional return.

I know he was in a boot for most of the non-con games, so who's to say he would have even been playing had he not been redshirting. Missing on recruits because you didn't evaluate them right, and didn't offer, is one thing, but it's tough to give him a pass if he thought this team would be better without Ochai.

[CrimsonNBlue]

Not so fast!

[Deleted User 89]

nothing that we haven't really covered over the last 45 pages...lol

https://thebiglead.com/2019/02/18/the-c ... rald-vick/

It wasn’t so long ago that Kansas’ Lagerald Vick was the hottest shooter in the country. As December began he was shooting 59 percent from the arc. At 45.5 percent he remains Kansas’ most accurate 3-point shooter, as well as the only one who can reliably make guarded jump shots.

Just one thing: It’s unclear whether or not Vick is still on the team and increasingly clear the 14th-ranked Jayhawks are better off without him.

Three games ago, Kansas announced Vick was taking what the school described as a “leave of absence,” offering no further explanation. Vick’s mother, LaLa, tweeted that Vick was needed at home in Memphis for a non-specified family matter, and that’s all the information anybody has been able to gather as to the life and times of the second-leading scorer on the preseason No. 1 team in the country.

Meanwhile, floundering Kansas has reinvented itself and turned its season around.

For weeks the Jayhawks had looked slow, depressed and confused. They looked like a collection of good parts that didn’t fit together, and a loss at Kansas State on Feb. 5 was their fourth in six games. They looked like the worst Kansas team in at least a decade, and the first one since 2004 that would not win the Big 12 championship.

Vick was held out for most the first half of that game. Two days later, Kansas announced Vick was on leave.

Eleven days after that, the Jayhawks are demolishing West Virginia on ESPN, and Fran Fraschilla — part analyst, part Big 12 beat reporter — says more than once he doesn’t think Vick will be returning to the team, and that Kansas once again looks like it could get to the Final Four.

All of which begs the question: Did Bill Self kick Lagerald Vick off the team without telling anybody?

Everyone who’s been following Kansas basketball for the last year or so could tell you Vick’s place on the Jayhawks has been … tentative. When he declared for the NBA draft after last season, I assumed that was because Self had given him the “soft boot” — not kicked off, exactly, but encouraged to find a new basketball team nonetheless.

“I believe the time is right for him to move on,” Self said at the time.

Not many thought Vick would be playing in the NBA this year, but even fewer thought he’d be playing at Kansas. Then, out of nowhere, KU announced that oh by the way Lagerald Vick is coming back and everybody is real happy about it.

In a conversation with The Topeka Capital-Journal following Friday’s announcement, Self labeled Vick’s return a “win-win,” although he admitted it’s a scenario he would’ve never envisioned in April.

“No chance. None, none. When we played our last game, it was very evident that he had played his last game at Kansas,” Self told The Capital-Journal. “Certainly I think in his mind he was 100-percent sure he had, and in my mind I was 100-percent sure he had. But things change and certainly the process he’s gone through I think has been very eye-opening to him, and he’s realized that maybe he’s still got a ways to go to get to where he wants to be. I think that kind of helped change his perspective.

“I think it’s positive. He seems excited to have the opportunity to finish what he started. We’re also very excited to give him that opportunity. I think it’s a win-win.”

Against all odds, this actually looked like it was going to work out. Vick played so well in November he was one of those guys broadcasters would talk about during games he wasn’t even playing in. He had back-to-back 30 point games, then 27 against Stanford and 29 against Villanova.

Lagerald Vick is not the smartest player KU has ever had. His shot selection has always been dicey, and the hero-ball shots had really become a Thing this year. Still, without Vick’s shooting, the Jayhawks probably would have lost to Stanford, Villanova and Baylor, and we’d be talking about a team barreling toward something like a No. 6 seed in the NCAA Tournament.

Then came that pivotal game at K-State. Self held Vick out most of the first half, which was a bold move considering the alternative was little-used Cal transfer Charlie Moore. Needing some offense, Self ultimately played Vick 19 minutes but afterward sounded like he regretted it.

“We made a decision to not play him in the first half obviously, but when we did that we were actually better,” Self said.

That has held up for the last three games, too.

Without starting center Udoka Azubuike (injured), power forward Silvio De Sousa (NCAA suspension), guard Marcus Garrett (injured) and Vick, the Jayhawks have won three games in a row.

They look fast and exuberant. They look joyful. They’re dunking again. They look like they have an identity.

And without saying it, Self is saying that’s because Vick is gone.

For about a month, it appeared Vick was KU’s leader and it appeared he would make a serviceable one. You could practically hear the longform narrative features being typed up in the background.

As recently as Feb. 5, KU’s Dedric Lawson (also from Memphis) told reporters he expected Vick would be back with the Jayhawks before this season is over.

The way it looks now, the Jayhawks can’t risk it.

[Deleted User 75]

That's why I was nice and said effort and not he brought defense. I know he was far from a lockdown defender, but you never questioned if he was fully invested into the game. The Duke game was just a perfect example of that. Dude busted his ass on the defensive side and didn't put up big offensive numbers. If Vick doesn't put up offensive numbers you might as well chalk his man up for 20 that night. Svi didn't let his shooting performance dictate the rest of his game.

It's certainly true that some games will elevate a player into the legendary.

But, in general, it makes no sense that Svi has become a whipping boy in a discussion that has absolutely nothing to do with him. It's quite weird.

That's something you'd have to ask the guy who brought Svi into it about.

We've also had an Evan Manning mention!

[TDub]

So illy has a meter riding a jamari horse, when does pdub get a meter? Maybe a knight in shining armor standing in front of lagerald?

[Mjl]

What would it be used for? When somebody is arguing using facts against a crowd of folks going off feelings?

[Deleted User 62]

What would it be used for? When somebody is arguing using facts against a crowd of folks going off feelings?

JFC

[NDballer13]

What would it be used for? When somebody is arguing using facts against a crowd of folks going off feelings?

*Fact. Singular. No 's'. He's riding the one single fact as his counter to every issue that's been mentioned against it.

[PhDhawk]

What would it be used for? When somebody is arguing using facts against a crowd of folks going off feelings?

*Fact. Singular. No 's'. He's riding the one single fact as his counter to every issue that's been mentioned against it.

That's still one more than the people he's arguing against.

We still don't even know if this leave of absence is permanent, or even what it's really for.

[TDub]

Well. Its a fact that he has been benched several times in his career for conduct detrimental to the team. It is a fact that his production drops off in the conference season year after year.

[Deleted User 75]

It's a fact he's not very liked by his teammates.

It's a fact he was accused of kicking a girl in the face and the university determined it was more than likely true.

[PhDhawk]

Well. Its a fact that he has been benched several times in his career for conduct detrimental to the team. It is a fact that his production drops off in the conference season year after year.

Yeah, but a benching is, generally, for something less severe than a suspension. He still played in those games. I could be wrong, but this leave of absence was the first time he's ever not played in a game. But some people want to paint a picture that he's the biggest trouble maker imaginable.

And there's no denying his production fell off as a Junior, and he had more good games as a Sr. before conference play...but there are other things that contribute to that beyond "he's a bad person". He seems to play better against smaller less, athletic teams, which we play more often earlier in the year. Players like Dotson this year, and Newman last year took on bigger roles. Plus I think the production drop off is probably exaggerated, his scoring went from 15.8 ppg in the non-con to 12.4 ppg in conference. Keep in mind the team scoring average dropped about 10 ppg in conference play relative to the non-conference...so he's not the only one.

[PhDhawk]

It's a fact he's not very liked by his teammates.

Where's the proof of that? Seems like speculation based on instagram photos.

I'm not saying they do like him...I just think there are a lot of posters who put a lot of stock in body language, social media posts, sound bites from Bill Self press conferences, etc. that may or may not tell you the full story.

[TDub]

Im not trying to bash Vick but theres more to bball than stats and it seems he loses focus and has some serious stretches that are unproductive and detrimental to the team.

I hope he comes back and kills it. My point is just that i think he is an odd player choice for someone to dig in on fall on their sword for (i know thats not a proper way to end a sentence)

[CrimsonNBlue]

Im not trying to bash Vick but theres more to bball than stats and it seems he loses focus and has some serious stretches that are unproductive and detrimental to the team.

Those are just feelings man. The only thing that matters are season long stats. Just certain ones. Those are the only facts.

[CrimsonNBlue]

What would it be used for? When somebody is arguing using facts against a crowd of folks going off feelings?

*Fact. Singular. No 's'. He's riding the one single fact as his counter to every issue that's been mentioned against it.

That's still one more than the people he's arguing against.

We still don't even know if this leave of absence is permanent, or even what it's really for.

I've been trying to be careful to use qualifiers like "assuming he's gone," "presumably," etc., but that doesn't really need to be said. It's a message board, pretty much all of the discussion exists in the hypothetical. If it turns out he's gone b/c he lost a child or had a severe medical condition induced mental breakdown, everyone adjusts their take on the situation. It doesn't need to be said.

[jfish26]

*Fact. Singular. No 's'. He's riding the one single fact as his counter to every issue that's been mentioned against it.

That's still one more than the people he's arguing against.

We still don't even know if this leave of absence is permanent, or even what it's really for.

I've been trying to be careful to use qualifiers like "assuming he's gone," "presumably," etc., but that doesn't really need to be said. It's a message board, pretty much all of the discussion exists in the hypothetical. If it turns out he's gone b/c he lost a child or had a severe medical condition induced mental breakdown, everyone adjusts their take on the situation. It doesn't need to be said.

Right. We may never know exactly what caused the leave of absence, and to what degree it was a slow burn versus a major event.

I'm not sure it matters, though; mental health (for example) is a weird and complex thing, and a substance abuse problem (again just for example) of course has underlying issues and causes and is at least as much a disease as a personal failure.

But the exact circumstances and causes don't really affect how I feel about basketball. Vick, for the entirety of his career (and likely before - how does a player that talented stay ranked that low?), has had focus and accountability and reliability issues.

Those are easier to smooth over when a guy is a 4th or 8th option. But when a guy is a senior, and certainly the lead guard in an experienced backcourt, you expect focus and intensity and effort and engagement to be givens. Shots will go in or they won't. But when your senior guard can't engage, you have major major problems.

[Deleted User 89]

word

[CrimsonNBlue]

But the exact circumstances and causes don't really affect how I feel about basketball. Vick, for the entirety of his career (and likely before - how does a player that talented stay ranked that low?), has had focus and accountability and reliability issues.

Those are easier to smooth over when a guy is a 4th or 8th option. But when a guy is a senior, and certainly the lead guard in an experienced backcourt, you expect focus and intensity and effort and engagement to be givens. Shots will go in or they won't. But when your senior guard can't engage, you have major major problems.

Long before the leave of absence, Bill made a decision to no longer have him in the program.

Maybe Bill's a big asshole, but I can't see the reason for that decision being Vick's struggle w/ severe anxiety disorder, etc.