pdub wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 1:39 pm
Authoritarians doing authoritarian things does not equate to my having "tolerance for evangelical Christian-adjacent authoritarianism." Which is what you said in your post just a bit ago.
Once again, I do not doubt where YOUR heart is on this.
But once again, I am CERTAIN that the authoritarians will use each and every vote (or potential vote) that is not cast FOR Biden, as an expression of support FOR authoritarians.
In my opinion, someone who is truly AGAINST authoritarians should not give the authoritarians a vote (or non-vote) they can misconstrue as being FOR them.
Does the world fall apart if you vote for Bill Self? Of course it doesn't. But, in my opinion, a protest vote (or even a non-vote) simply DOES give third parties an opening to infer - however wrongly! - your support of Trump.
"And, in my opinion, declining to vote, or making a protest vote, simply falls short."
This I fully respect. Good JFish.
"ANY vote that is not for dime-store-Hitler's true opponent - whether or not the vote would have any chance of being outcome-determinative - implies at least SOME degree of tolerance for evangelical Christian-adjacent authoritarianism."
This is what makes me not be able to stand you. Bad JFish.
I imagine it's how JK feels about me when I call him a moran over disputing something objective.
Except the dispute here is far far far more subjective.
pdub wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 1:39 pm
Authoritarians doing authoritarian things does not equate to my having "tolerance for evangelical Christian-adjacent authoritarianism." Which is what you said in your post just a bit ago.
Once again, I do not doubt where YOUR heart is on this.
But once again, I am CERTAIN that the authoritarians will use each and every vote (or potential vote) that is not cast FOR Biden, as an expression of support FOR authoritarians.
I don't care how someone who is shitty and manipulative continues to be shitty and manipulative nor am I surprised. Or maybe I should say that, I care, but that they will manipulate whatever they possibly can - if it's not one thing that it will be some other ( ThE eLEcTIoN WaS SToLEN ) - and my hope is that something good would prevail out of it ( if no one voted ) to where the people see their voice isn't being heard by either party.
Manipulative continuing to be manipulative sucks. What they use as fodder shouldn't really matter to those who understand they are being manipulative.
That doesn't mean that I tolerate that in my protest.
It'd be my ideal to have under 10% of the population to vote and for Biden to win.
That's what'd I'd love to see.
pdub wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:45 am
I'm candidate C.
I don't think you're following.
Ok. And we've talked about this before. In my opinion, ANY vote that is not for dime-store-Hitler's true opponent - whether or not the vote would have any chance of being outcome-determinative - implies at least SOME degree of tolerance for evangelical Christian-adjacent authoritarianism.*
I don't value this absolutist extremist opinion on someone not voting at all.
It's very close to what, a false dichotomy fallacy?
Or is it an equivocal fallacy?
It's one of 'dem fallacies.
And it's worthless.
( it's very similar to - hey, if you don't want college players getting paid, well, you're racist and support slavery - it's very JFish at his most pretentious )
There is absolutely NO degree of tolerance for authoritarianism.
Again, it's like getting an option for a dinner party for dry chicken or burnt to a crisp steak.
Dry chicken would be better but I don't want either. Because I chose neither does not mean I like burnt to a crisp steak. I look at the options and go, both suck, and as protest, i'm not choosing either.
I want a better system.
This is one of my ways ( albeit small but JUST AS SMALL AS ONE INDIVIDUAL VOTE FOR ONE OF THE TWO SHITTY CANDIDATES IN A STATE ) of stating so.
except in this analogy you don’t have the option of just going hungry…you’re gonna be forced to eat one or the other
i think all of us want a better system
Have we fallen into a mesmerized state that makes us accept as inevitable that which is inferior or detrimental, as though having lost the will or the vision to demand that which is good?
"Unfortunately, the reality of the situation is that a non-vote doesn't state anything other than that you're not that bothered by the possibility of Trump becoming President from a purely practical matter, which when you're counting votes and assigning delegates to award states towards an electoral college count is the only point that matters."
A huge gap of distance in the way that some of you straight shooters see things ( I put twocoach and JFish as peas in a pod ) and the way I see things is the strength in principle/value. It is esoteric. Hell, it's emotional. It's not 0's. It's not 1's. It's not 'you aren't doing it the way it is so you're wrong or what you're doing or feeling isn't important'.
In this case, you say you have to do the most obvious thing to make an impact, which is vote for Biden.
I disagree. There is value in my vote. And there is value in my not voting.
And this value applies immensely to me - and applies just as much as you think it does for the grand scheme of things ( your view is simply candidate 1 or candidate 2, mine is reformation in the system, which the slow decline of voter participation would hopefully do, or I feel it would ).
Going full nerd:
You're Lawful Good/Lawful Neutral ( maybe Lawful Evil - I don't know how you all act outside these boreds ).
I'm Chaotic Good ( i'm not evil - trust me bro ).
It's why we don't agree on a lot of things ( money taking priority, AI's use in the future of our world, using your vote/not using your vote ).
pdub wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 1:53 pm
"And, in my opinion, declining to vote, or making a protest vote, simply falls short."
This I fully respect. Good JFish.
"ANY vote that is not for dime-store-Hitler's true opponent - whether or not the vote would have any chance of being outcome-determinative - implies at least SOME degree of tolerance for evangelical Christian-adjacent authoritarianism."
This is what makes me not be able to stand you. Bad JFish.
I imagine it's how JK feels about me when I call him a moran over disputing something objective.
Except the dispute here is far far far more subjective.
I just don't think it's all that subjective (which, yes, that's subjective in its own right!).
I think we're at an inflection point in our country's path. And I think each and every one of us needs to think about, if this all goes the wrong direction, how we'll answer when our kids ask what we did at this inflection point.
I want my answer to, at a bare minimum, include that I used my one vote in the ONLY way that cannot possibly be misconstrued or misunderstood or mischaracterized. When one of my daughters needs her husband's permission to, like, get a dental cleaning, I don't want to have to admit I did anything short of that with my one vote.
twocoach and JFish = Ned Stark
pdub = The Blackfish
Ned sees only one path, the most obvious one, and the most orderly one. It's the only path he can see to good. If you're not doing that orderly, obvious thing, he's gonna look down on you, scold you, because he only sees the clear direct path. 0's and 1's.
The Blackfish does his own thing, which is do what he feels is right, but full well knowing this thing is still for the greater good. He doesn't care if it's not what Ned Stark feels is right. And when Ned Stark is nagging away in absolutes, he just rolls his eyes, because it's fucking annoying.
You can swear to the system all you want. It might just end up getting your head chopped off though.
I'm swimming the fuck down the river, outta the system so I can fight another day.
"I just don't think it's all that subjective (which, yes, that's subjective in its own right!)."
Also, the fact that you just said that it's subjective in a sentence about it not being subjective means it's subjective.
pdub wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 2:36 pm
twocoach and JFish = Ned Stark
pdub = The Blackfish
Ned sees only one path, the most obvious one, and the most orderly one. It's the only path he can see to good. If you're not doing that orderly, obvious thing, he's gonna look down on you, scold you, because he only sees the clear direct path. 0's and 1's.
The Blackfish does his own thing, which is do what he feels is right, but full well knowing this thing is still for the greater good. He doesn't care if it's not what Ned Stark feels is right.
"I just don't think it's all that subjective (which, yes, that's subjective in its own right!)."
Also, the fact that you just said that it's subjective in a sentence about it not being subjective means it's subjective.
Of course that's what opinions are.
But I think this is all happening so incrementally (and in a way that is so obscured by right-wing, bad-faith squid ink) that good people, smart people, principled people, do not realize how close we are to the precipice on this stuff.
This is not something that might theoretically happen maybe some day to some degree to someone that's not me. These are things that ARE happening TODAY to US; I had to stock up on Plan B because, right this second anyway, it would be a crime for a medical doctor to perform an abortion on my daughters. You're nuts if you don't think the Mike Johnsons of the world will not come for birth control next, or the soft-criminalization of being LGBTQ+.
As a matter of principle, and of practicality, I don't EVER want to tell my daughters I did anything with my one vote that could be twisted around as supporting the religious right and its authoritarian aims.
That's the whole point.
You say things like 'because of your subjective opinion you're a little racist and/or support slavery just a little'.
You say things like 'because of your subjective opinion you're tolerant of authoritarianism'.
And then JUST YESTERDAY you speak to how people have different opinions and that it's reasonable to do so BUT ( rightfully so ) not reasonably to deny objective reality.
So out of the side of your mouth you say one thing and then when an opinion that is so so clearly subjective ( so subjective you even define it as so while trying to say it's not ) comes along that you don't like, and there's a lot of push back, you fall back on these shitty absolutisms which have no meaningful relationships at all.
"You didn't donate to the humane society this year. You hate animals."
pdub wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 2:52 pm
"Of course that's what opinions are."
That's the whole point.
You say things like 'because of your subjective opinion you're a little racist and/or support slavery just a little'.
You say things like 'because of your subjective opinion you're tolerant of authoritarianism'.
And then JUST YESTERDAY you speak to how people have different opinions and that it's reasonable to do so BUT ( rightfully so ) not reasonably to deny objective reality.
So out of the side of your mouth you say one thing and then when an opinion that is so so clearly subjective ( so subjective you even define it as so while trying to say it's not ) comes along that you don't like, and there's a lot of push back, you fall back on these shitty absolutisms which have no meaningful relationships at all.
"You didn't donate to the humane society this year. You hate animals."
Blackfish rolls his eyes at Ned Stark.
I have no interest in this spinning off into the absurd because of baggage that exists over other opinions we have shared on these boards.
Suffice it to say that, for MY vote, I will use it in the ONLY way that cannot possibly be construed, by anyone for any reason, as being anything except a direct, complete, 1:1 rebuke of encroaching religious right authoritarianism.
jfish26 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 2:28 pm
When one of my daughters needs her husband's permission to, like, get a dental cleaning, I don't want to have to admit I did anything short of that with my one vote.
I saw gas at $2.99/gallon yesterday here in freedumb-loving DeSantisville.
At the register: Average turkey prices cost 5.6% less than last year, according to the Farm Bureau, coming in at $27.35 for a 16-pound turkey. That's not all. Cranberries are down 18.3%, stuffing mix costs 2.8% less, pie crusts are 4.9% lower, while prices on whipped cream have slumped 22.8%. Other items have increased marginally, like dinner rolls, potatoes and pumpkin pie mix. Overall, the average price of a traditional Thanksgiving feast for 10 people in 2023 runs $61.17, or less than $6.20 per person, down 4.5% from a year ago.
Costs have not only been falling on the dinner table. Gas prices have declined for nine straight weeks now amid a drop in crude prices and seasonal weakening demand, with the national average for a gallon of regular gas standing at $3.28 on Wednesday, according to AAA. Lower prices are helping lead to a travel resurgence on highways and in the air, with 55.4M Americans traveling at least 50 miles from home between today and the Sunday after Thanksgiving. The TSA is also anticipating the busiest holiday travel season on record, expecting to screen 30M passengers during the Thanksgiving travel period (Nov. 17-27), marking a 9% increase Y/Y and up 1.7M passengers over pre-COVID record levels.
"Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect."
Egg prices have begun to decline since hitting its peak average price of $4.82 in Jan. 2023. As of October 2023, the average cost of a dozen Grade A eggs is $2.07, according to data from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, retrieved from the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis, or FRED.
"Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect."
Have we fallen into a mesmerized state that makes us accept as inevitable that which is inferior or detrimental, as though having lost the will or the vision to demand that which is good?
Shirley wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 6:56 am
Egg prices have begun to decline since hitting its peak average price of $4.82 in Jan. 2023. As of October 2023, the average cost of a dozen Grade A eggs is $2.07, according to data from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, retrieved from the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis, or FRED.
Shirley wrote: ↑Thu Nov 23, 2023 6:56 am
Egg prices have begun to decline since hitting its peak average price of $4.82 in Jan. 2023. As of October 2023, the average cost of a dozen Grade A eggs is $2.07, according to data from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, retrieved from the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis, or FRED.
(Cal-Maine being one of the co.s involved in the price-fixing lawsuit in your link.)
"Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect."
By most standard measures, the American economy is going gangbusters. GDP grew at a nearly 5% annualized pace in the third quarter, the best since late 2021. Unemployment sits at just 3.9%. Inflation, which had peaked at a 7.5% annual rate in January 2022, has fallen to 3.2%. Joe Biden can trumpet the fact that just under 14 million jobs have been created since he took office, a record for an American president. Over the comparable period in Donald Trump’s term — before the Covid-19 pandemic — fewer than 6 million jobs were created.
And people are certainly acting like the economy is good: Consumer spending is strong, and Americans are starting new businesses at the highest rates since the Census Bureau began tracking this data in 2006. Yet when pollsters ask people how they think the economy is doing, they don’t just express concern. They say the economy is terrible.
Every day, more ink is spilled exploring this “disconnect,” this “mystery,” this “puzzle.” Many of the factors analysts suggest as they try to explain are perfectly reasonable, and probably contribute to dim views of the economy. But most of the time, the most obvious and important explanation is overlooked: The polling data doesn’t show that Americans think the economy stinks so much as it shows that Republicans say it stinks.
It’s hard to know whether Republicans actually believe this. But it’s beyond doubt that partisanship plays a key role in what people tell pollsters about the economy.
Some partisanship has always existed in polling about the economy: When there’s a Democrat in the White House, Democrats are more likely to say the economy is good than Republicans, and both sides change their opinions when the White House changes hands. But this difference has grown in recent years — and grown unequally. A pair of economists who examined decades of polling data concluded, “While both Republicans and Democrats view the economy more favorably when their party controls the White House, the magnitude of this partisan bias is roughly two and a half times larger for Republicans than for Democrats.”
Have we fallen into a mesmerized state that makes us accept as inevitable that which is inferior or detrimental, as though having lost the will or the vision to demand that which is good?
