Foreign aid to ukraine

[jfish26]

I still think there’s some grey area between simply parroting Putin, and actual objective criticism for the US’s own militancy on a global stage.

I’ve avoided the former, but maybe there’s some inevitable overlap.

You refuse to even consider and continue to ridicule the latter, despite the US’s “history of making huge mistakes vis-a-vis our foreign policy” not exactly bolstering your position, and matter how michhawky it makes you sound.

Besides, I don’t think it should be my own fault for the US/NATO/western world validating Putin’s propaganda.

Putin: “there’s a Nazi problem in Ukraine!”

West: “nuh uh, no there ain’t, now watch us give a standing ovation to a Nazi from Ukraine! Someone get a photo op of Zelensky giving a fist pump!”

Did you go back and read Putin's speech? I hadn't thought about it in a long time.

I understand that you do not want to have adopted the talking points he offered as justification for attacking Ukraine...but you have, in substance.

If you feel that his talking points are correct (or at least defensible), you can just say so.

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/n ... raine-war/

[ousdahl]

I don’t mean to defend a thing about Putin.

But the thing is, I don’t think the US’s own shenanigans are defensible, either.

Fresh off the egg-on-face that was 20 years in Afghanistan, the war machine seemed to be at a low point of credibility.

As such, any sort of new war initiative should have been received with at least some sense of skepticism.

But, somehow, it was received not with skepticism, but with great patriotic pride. “Stand with Ukraine! For no matter how long it takes!” As if the American people just can’t get enough of endless wars. And, any attempt as skepticism has, as has been very well documented here, been knee-jerk labeled as bad guy propaganda.

And the cognitive dissonance of realizing our foreign policy huge mistakes after the fact, yet insisting with, like, dogmatic conviction that our foreign policies are like so totally legit in real time, without being able to provide any real evidence to support it, and to the exclusion of any space for criticism.

It’s exhausting.

[jfish26]

What’s exhausting is you continuing to make the same category error on this topic.

There is only one side to the Ukraine conflict that undertook anything like a “war initiative”, and it’s the side whose talking points you simply do adopt, over and over.

And that’s my point.

If you find Putin’s justification and gaslighting and blame-shifting to be valid and compelling and merited, then just say that. I won’t agree with you, but at least it’s honest.

But stop telling us “fuck Putin” and so on, while continuing to more-or-less agree with the substance of his statement of justification for Russia’s war initiative.

[Sparko]

Putin is objectively evil and there is no grey.

[randylahey]

Putin is objectively evil and there is no grey.

There's grey. Putin is no more evil than george bush Obama or biden. You're once again an ignorant victim of one sided propaganda

Putin also believes that the US political system is rotten/corrupt. He's right

[randylahey]

Zelensky is also a corrupt dictator who's exploiting these circumstances for power

[RainbowsandUnicorns]

Putin is objectively evil and there is no grey.

There's grey. Putin is no more evil than george bush Obama or biden. You're once again an ignorant victim of one sided propaganda

Putin also believes that the US political system is rotten/corrupt. He's right

I'll be nice.
You're a fucking idiot if you truly believe "Putin is no more evil than george bush Obama or biden".

[randylahey]

Putin is objectively evil and there is no grey.

There's grey. Putin is no more evil than george bush Obama or biden. You're once again an ignorant victim of one sided propaganda

Putin also believes that the US political system is rotten/corrupt. He's right

I'll be nice.
You're a fucking idiot if you truly believe "Putin is no more evil than george bush Obama or biden".

You do understand our politicians are extremely corrupt and considered war criminals in many parts of the world right? For the bombings and various acts our military commits

[randylahey]

America is a "force of greed" that uses media propaganda to convince its own people that it's actually a "force of good"

[RainbowsandUnicorns]

There's grey. Putin is no more evil than george bush Obama or biden. You're once again an ignorant victim of one sided propaganda

Putin also believes that the US political system is rotten/corrupt. He's right

I'll be nice.
You're a fucking idiot if you truly believe "Putin is no more evil than george bush Obama or biden".

You do understand our politicians are extremely corrupt and considered war criminals in many parts of the world right? For the bombings and various acts our military commits

Yes, I understand many of "our" politicians are corrupt.
Yes, I understand SOME are considered war criminals.
I'm not a smart guy but I understand some/many of the differences between Putin and Bush, Obama, Biden.
Like I said, "you're a fucking idiot if you truly believe "Putin is no more evil than george bush Obama or biden".
Maybe I am alone in feeling that way but my guess is most who read your words agree with me.

Moving on......

[ousdahl]

There is only one side to the Ukraine conflict that undertook anything like a “war initiative”

I think this is the root of our disagreements. One of them, at least.

I simply think there’s more than one side to this conflict. And more than one side that has undertaken a “war initiative”

(is “war initiative” semantically different than “warmongering” too?)

To refuse to consider that maybe there IS more than one side in a military conflict; to insist upon this “only takes one to tango” sort of mindset; to double down on the idea that the US gets to militarily do whatever we want on the world stage with impunity and it’s up to the rest of the world to just deal with it; it’s all very michhawk-ian.

[ousdahl]

And I hate to agree with randy here

….buuuuuuuuut

Yea, in a just world, Bush and Obama and Biden should all be tried at The Hague for war crimes too, just like Putin should.

Biden is currently furnishing weapons for the Israeli genoci…I mean, bombing of terrorist…uh, mostly women and children. (Those terrorist babies are the scariest! If you think they’re militant now, just wait til they start teething!)

Obama dropped tens of thousands of bombs across the world, more bombs than even Bush dropped, often upon obvious civilian targets such as hospitals and funerals and weddings.

And Bush…please don’t tell me you don’t understand why Bush should be tried for war crimes too.

But the difference is, there’s a slightly better chance that maybe Putin WILL be tried for war crimes.

Bush signed a law that says if The Hague ever attempts to try an American for war crimes, the US will military invade the Netherlands about it instead.

It’s another chapter of the US foreign policy of, “do as I say not as I do.”

[Sparko]

Yow. Radicals gonna radical I guess. Randy is free to go live in the Russian Federation. But would be on the front in two weeks. Then he could really measure the spirit of the Ukrainians fighting for the survival of their culture and nation. For probably two hours.

[jfish26]

There is only one side to the Ukraine conflict that undertook anything like a “war initiative”

I think this is the root of our disagreements. One of them, at least.

I simply think there’s more than one side to this conflict. And more than one side that has undertaken a “war initiative”

(is “war initiative” semantically different than “warmongering” too?)

To refuse to consider that maybe there IS more than one side in a military conflict; to insist upon this “only takes one to tango” sort of mindset; to double down on the idea that the US gets to militarily do whatever we want on the world stage with impunity and it’s up to the rest of the world to just deal with it; it’s all very michhawk-ian.

Too many things in the blender.

Whether you like it or not, you accept and give credence to Putin’s justifications for his war on Ukraine.

[Overlander]

There is only one side to the Ukraine conflict that undertook anything like a “war initiative”

I think this is the root of our disagreements. One of them, at least.

I simply think there’s more than one side to this conflict. And more than one side that has undertaken a “war initiative”

(is “war initiative” semantically different than “warmongering” too?)

To refuse to consider that maybe there IS more than one side in a military conflict; to insist upon this “only takes one to tango” sort of mindset; to double down on the idea that the US gets to militarily do whatever we want on the world stage with impunity and it’s up to the rest of the world to just deal with it; it’s all very michhawk-ian.

Whether you like it or not, you accept and give credence to Putin’s justifications for his war on Ukraine.

Yep

[randylahey]

Ukraine has the United States corrupt fingerprints all over it and has for a decade now going back to 2014

The one thing that we can all probably agree on is that the people of Ukraine and the ultimate losers/victims of all this

[randylahey]

Ukraine should hope trump wins in 2024 so that we might see an end to this ongoing conflict

Trumps primary focus was internal affairs and not on foreign warmongering and profiteering like what we see under Biden who is puppet of a globalist power agenda

[Overlander]

Is there an “off” button for your bullhorn?

[jfish26]

Ukraine should hope trump wins in 2024 so that we might see an end to this ongoing conflict

Trumps primary focus was internal affairs and not on foreign warmongering and profiteering like what we see under Biden who is puppet of a globalist power agenda

Just a giggle to all of this. Each in its own giggly way.

[randylahey]

Ukraine should hope trump wins in 2024 so that we might see an end to this ongoing conflict

Trumps primary focus was internal affairs and not on foreign warmongering and profiteering like what we see under Biden who is puppet of a globalist power agenda

Just a giggle to all of this. Each in its own giggly way.

I think you guys get triggered by the fact that there is truth to it

Trump was the one president in recent history that wasn't getting us in foreign conflicts and looked at America like a business and not like a military empire

And the one guy who wasn't a bought and paid for politician. That's why the corrupt money and big government HATED him. They couldn't control him. And thats why they need you to hate him too