Israel/Palestine

[jfish26]

Weren’t you the guy like, “stop lumping everything together,” like just yesterday?

This is the Israel/Palestine thread. Dunno why you’re clutching your pearls about Russia here too. And Iraq. And Afghanistan. And Kissinger!

But, since you brought it up, yes, I think all of those things should be considered, as part of some very relevant bigger picture, when considering this thread too.

You are using some UN performative hand-waving to support your point.

I am indicating why I don't, and why you logically should not, give much credence to UN performative hand-waving.

[ousdahl]

So what about the other 152 nations, then?

I hope you don’t mean to suggest Russian boogeyman is so sophisticated and powerful that they can get that many other nations to vote for a ceasefire.

Do you think their influence is that significant? I don’t.

Perhaps, for much of the rest of the world, a ceasefire is simply a no-brainer.

[jfish26]

So what about the other 152 nations, then?

I hope you don’t mean to suggest Russian boogeyman is so sophisticated and powerful that they can get that many other nations to vote for a ceasefire.

Do you think their influence is that significant? I don’t.

Perhaps, for much of the rest of the world, a ceasefire is simply a no-brainer.

I wasn't making a point about any particular number of nations. I was making a point about the weight we should give the institution, generally.

And I just do not give all that much weight to an institution that permits an actively-warmaking (not just warmongering) nation to be on its Security Council.

[Sparko]

Please don't stop genocidal invasions you Warmongers! You're slowing the rise of authoritarian nightmarish wars of unlimited duration.

[ousdahl]

So what about the other 152 nations, then?

I hope you don’t mean to suggest Russian boogeyman is so sophisticated and powerful that they can get that many other nations to vote for a ceasefire.

Do you think their influence is that significant? I don’t.

Perhaps, for much of the rest of the world, a ceasefire is simply a no-brainer.

I wasn't making a point about any particular number of nations. I was making a point about the weight we should give the institution, generally.

And I just do not give all that much weight to an institution that permits an actively-warmaking (not just warmongering) nation to be on its Security Council.

I think nitpicking the semantics of warmaking vs warmongering says as much as we need to know here.

But yes, I agree the UN is definitely undermined by such warmaking/warmongering/whatever you will sorts of nations (plural!) on its security council.

[Shirley]

Israel Defense Forces
@IDF
During combat in Shejaiya, the IDF mistakenly identified 3 Israeli hostages as a threat and as a result, fired toward them and the hostages were killed.
________________________________________________________________

It's past time for Biden to put more pressure on Bibby, and put conditions on American aide:

December 15, 2023-The Biden strategy of putting private pressure on Netanyahu has not worked. Biden has the political strength and support in Israel to do that publicly, and that would be more effective.

Mitchell MInute 1751-Biden Must Pressure Netanyahu Publicly

I wish mjl2 was here to give us his opinion.

[MICHHAWK]

in his absence i would be happy to give you mine.

[Shirley]

in his absence i would be happy to give you mine.

Large of you to offer, but when I consider the tortured nature of your writing and how it appears to demand so much of you, as a bleeding heart liberal, I could never prevail upon another human being to endure such pain.

[ousdahl]

He said Israeli soldiers had recently faced attacks in which fighters “tried to mislead our forces and fire-trap them,” as well as “suicide terrorists” who did not carry weapons.
…

Israeli soldiers in Gaza are now being told to “exercise additional caution” when encountering people in civilian clothes following the hostages’ accidental killing, Jonathan Conricus, another IDF spokesman, said.

He added that many of the combatants attacking IDF forces in Gaza “have been dressed in civilian clothes.”

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/12/15/midd ... index.html

It kinda sounds like the mistake Israeli forces made may be been they thought the Israeli hostages were actually Palestinian civilians instead.

And go figure 3 Israeli hostages killed by Israeli forces makes bigger headlines than tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians killed by Israeli forces. Ugh.

Also, what the heck is a ‘“suicide terrorist” who did not carry weapons?’

That almost sounds like it’s just a regular old civilian who Israeli forces decide is asking for it

[ousdahl]

Indiscriminately, one might say.

“Israel’s security can rest on the United States, but right now it has more than the United States. It has the European Union, it has Europe, it has most of the world supporting them,” Biden said to donors during a fundraiser Tuesday.

“They’re starting to lose that support by indiscriminate bombing that takes place,” he said.

https://apnews.com/article/biden-israel ... b664a22071

[jfish26]

Indiscriminately, one might say.

“Israel’s security can rest on the United States, but right now it has more than the United States. It has the European Union, it has Europe, it has most of the world supporting them,” Biden said to donors during a fundraiser Tuesday.

“They’re starting to lose that support by indiscriminate bombing that takes place,” he said.

https://apnews.com/article/biden-israel ... b664a22071

Lesson being, things change?

[ousdahl]

If Q hadn't bravely rebelled against all things connected to the Church when they told him it was a sin to pull his pud, he might know that there is a long tradition in Western Civilization, derived from the work of Saints Augustine and Thomas Aquinas, laying out the morality both of taking military action (jus ad bellum) and of behavior during war (jus in bello). And if he knew that then he'd also know that for at least three millennia, civilized people have agreed that the moral responsibility for civilian deaths in war lies exclusively with those who put them in harm's way, ESPECIALLY IF THEY DO SO PURPOSEFULLY.

Israel is not attacking indiscriminately, and it is not unjustly or immorally killing innocents. The blood spilled in Gaza stains the hands of the leaders of Hamas -- and no one else.

IDF says Israeli hostages it killed in Gaza were bare chested and waving white flag

Revelation increases unease about Netanyahu’s indiscriminate conduct of military campaign and anger of hostage families

The killing of the three hostages – who were kidnapped by Hamas on 7 October during its assault on southern Israel – has triggered widespread anger and incredulity in Israel amid a mounting sense of anxiety over the safety of the remaining hostages in Gaza.

According to reports of the IDF probe in the Israeli media, the three men Yotam Haim, Samer El-Talalka and Alon Shamriz – all in their 20s – had somehow escaped their captors and were approaching an IDF position in the Shejaiya area of Gaza City where there has been heavy fighting.

One of the men was carrying a stick with a white cloth tied to it and all had removed their shirts. Spotting the three, an Israeli soldier on a rooftop opened fire, shouting “Terrorists!”

While two of the hostages fell to the ground immediately, the third fled into a nearby building. When a commander arrived on the scene, the unit was ordered into the building where soldiers killed the third hostage despite his pleas for help in Hebrew.

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... white-flag

[jfish26]

If Q hadn't bravely rebelled against all things connected to the Church when they told him it was a sin to pull his pud, he might know that there is a long tradition in Western Civilization, derived from the work of Saints Augustine and Thomas Aquinas, laying out the morality both of taking military action (jus ad bellum) and of behavior during war (jus in bello). And if he knew that then he'd also know that for at least three millennia, civilized people have agreed that the moral responsibility for civilian deaths in war lies exclusively with those who put them in harm's way, ESPECIALLY IF THEY DO SO PURPOSEFULLY.

Israel is not attacking indiscriminately, and it is not unjustly or immorally killing innocents. The blood spilled in Gaza stains the hands of the leaders of Hamas -- and no one else.

IDF says Israeli hostages it killed in Gaza were bare chested and waving white flag

Revelation increases unease about Netanyahu’s indiscriminate conduct of military campaign and anger of hostage families

The killing of the three hostages – who were kidnapped by Hamas on 7 October during its assault on southern Israel – has triggered widespread anger and incredulity in Israel amid a mounting sense of anxiety over the safety of the remaining hostages in Gaza.

According to reports of the IDF probe in the Israeli media, the three men Yotam Haim, Samer El-Talalka and Alon Shamriz – all in their 20s – had somehow escaped their captors and were approaching an IDF position in the Shejaiya area of Gaza City where there has been heavy fighting.

One of the men was carrying a stick with a white cloth tied to it and all had removed their shirts. Spotting the three, an Israeli soldier on a rooftop opened fire, shouting “Terrorists!”

While two of the hostages fell to the ground immediately, the third fled into a nearby building. When a commander arrived on the scene, the unit was ordered into the building where soldiers killed the third hostage despite his pleas for help in Hebrew.

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... white-flag

This is horrible, obviously.

But I'd think someone who can find room for both (1) an actor's actions being unjustified, but also (2) a third party bearing responsibility for the actor's actions would understand that this is a tragic, but broadly predictable, thing that was bound to happen as a result of Hamas terrorists killing upwards of 1,000 Israelis.

[ousdahl]

Well at least we’re past you ridiculing me about the semantics of “indiscrimate”

…progress?

[KUTradition]

grunt, grunt…sniff, spit, grunt

[ousdahl]

Wonderful contribution, trad.

I’m so pleased we can all discuss this like civilized human beings.

[KUTradition]

grunt grunt lol

[KUTradition]

an actual civilized discussion isn’t possible when people use words for which they don’t know the definition, and then blame others when they get called out

[ousdahl]

Wait, are we still arguing semantics?

What word is it - “indiscriminate?”

Take it up with President Biden, among others.

[dolomite]

https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP13.HTM
So many cries about Israel killing civilians.
Just flood the Hamas tunnels with about three or four feet of Mediterranean Sea water.