Bill Self w/ 2

[DeletedUser]

Are you talking about the responses on this thread?

Not necessarily this thread. But some people really seem to dislike Sherron.

[pdub]

Cascadia doesn't post here anymore but he thought Sherron was one of the most overrated players in the Self era.
Are we talking about that guy?

[DeletedUser]

Sherron’s career/legacy is tainted by the fact the headlines should have read, “Sherron shows up to campus poised for POY senior campaign after BIFM-level summer of training”

But instead it was, “Sherron shows up to campus 40 pounds heavier”

His stats are similar Jr and Sr years, so other than "headlines" there was no real drop off in performance.

I think, for many people, it's mostly due to losing to Northern Iowa. But that's just my opinion.

2x consensus AA. Nobody else on the list did that. Has a ring, but rightfully so doesn't get full credit for it because he wasn't "the guy" in that year.



All that said, the NBA careers basically prove that Devonte was the best at basketball out of all of them, even though career wise at KU I'd put him 3rd.

[pdub]

Better NBA careers prove they were better in the NBA.

[pdub]

Player A:
18.9 PPG, 2.9 RPG, 5 APG, 43.4 FG

Player B:
15.5 PPG, 2.1 RPG, 4.5 APG, 42.6 FG

[MICHHAWK]

SC is in the conversation for greatest basketball JAYHAWK since DMan.

that is SC legacy.

[jfish26]

Sherron’s career/legacy is tainted by the fact the headlines should have read, “Sherron shows up to campus poised for POY senior campaign after BIFM-level summer of training”

But instead it was, “Sherron shows up to campus 40 pounds heavier”

His stats are similar Jr and Sr years, so other than "headlines" there was no real drop off in performance.

I think, for many people, it's mostly due to losing to Northern Iowa. But that's just my opinion.

I disagree with this. I think there very much WAS a material dropoff in his floor game, when you consider the context of the team around him.

As a senior, his floor shooting percentages stayed materially flat (tiny, immaterial downtick) on fewer shots, and his assists (per-game and expressed as a percentage) went down more meaningfully, despite (in both cases) playing with SUBSTANTIALLY more help than in his junior year. Rebounds fell off and steals stayed flat.

To the extent his overall efficiency numbers were better as a senior, it appears to come mostly from (1) a decreased TO rate (which you'd expect in context), and (2) an outlying uptick in FT% (which doesn't really say much about his actual development as a player).

He clearly was not BETTER as a senior than as a junior, and in my opinion he regressed some.

I think it's fair to criticize regression from junior to senior year, particularly where it's out of step with (1) the general trajectory Bill's players tend to have, and (2) the specific circumstances around the two years in question.

Losing to Northern Iowa was a killer, of course. There is also a lot of unsteadiness around his post-KU career that has left him something short of a program favorite.

[TDub]

I think he is a somewhat a program favorite in real life outside the online forums, specifically this board but also some specific circles on the phog.

[DeletedUser]

Hard for me to call consensus 1st team AA a material drop off/regression. Maybe our expectations were too high? It was basically NPOY and Natty or bust for him to meet expectations that year. After what happened his sophomore year he had some of the highest fan expectations of any player that I remember in the Self era. And he followed it with 2x AA.

You provide interesting points that I think can be analyzed in completely different ways based on which side of the fence you fall on. I think the increase in efficiency shows there wasn't a regression, and that the increase in talent around him was bound to cause minor downticks in stats.

As a side note: we blew some teams out that year iirc and he shows lots of games with 30min or less.

That team was really good. 6 wins in March/April that year instead of none and his indivudal legacy is so much different.

[KUTradition]

it’s important to remember that AA votes/awards have nearly as much to do with who else is putting up numbers in any given year

[jfish26]

Hard for me to call consensus 1st team AA a material drop off/regression. Maybe our expectations were too high? It was basically NPOY and Natty or bust for him to meet expectations that year. After what happened his sophomore year he had some of the highest fan expectations of any player that I remember in the Self era. And he followed it with 2x AA.

You provide interesting points that I think can be analyzed in completely different ways based on which side of the fence you fall on. I think the increase in efficiency shows there wasn't a regression, and that the increase in talent around him was bound to cause minor downticks in stats.

As a side note: we blew some teams out that year iirc and he shows lots of games with 30min or less.

That team was really good. 6 wins in March/April that year instead of none and his indivudal legacy is so much different.

I don't think anyone would disagree that his junior year play was sublime; every bit as good as Frank or Devonte ever was, perhaps better in the context of the team around him.

And while it might be fair to say that expectations after that were impossible...I think it's also fair to say that senior year AA* was somewhat of a lifetime achievement award earned in part because those expectations were so high (and because the team around him was so good).

* A point of reference - and to be clear we're nitpicking an all-timer here - the First Team was all guards/wings, and he was the lowest vote-earner among the five guys that made First Team.

[DeletedUser]

and because the team around him was so good

8 future NBA players on that team.

Insane to look back and see that Bill has won with tons of NBA talent and almost no NBA talent. We truly have won in several different ways during the Self era. And for the most part have avoided a down season for 2+ decades.

[pdub]

Player A:
18.9 PPG, 2.9 RPG, 5 APG, 43.4 FG

Player B:
15.5 PPG, 2.1 RPG, 4.5 APG, 42.6 FG

Spoiler alert, same player.

[Back2Lawrence]

Player A:
18.9 PPG, 2.9 RPG, 5 APG, 43.4 FG

Player B:
15.5 PPG, 2.1 RPG, 4.5 APG, 42.6 FG

I see what you did here

[Back2Lawrence]

According to the title of this thread, Sherron and DaJuan are the correct answers. Apparently we need Sophmore point guards to win Championships.

[jfish26]

and because the team around him was so good

8 future NBA players on that team.

Insane to look back and see that Bill has won with tons of NBA talent and almost no NBA talent. We truly have won in several different ways during the Self era. And for the most part have avoided a down season for 2+ decades.

I'm laughing at the "for the most part" part. We haven't been below the 4-line one single time in Bill's tenure. Since 2006-07, we've been a 1 more than we've been a 2-4 combined.

Kansas math is a bitch, in other words.

[DeletedUser]

and because the team around him was so good

8 future NBA players on that team.

Insane to look back and see that Bill has won with tons of NBA talent and almost no NBA talent. We truly have won in several different ways during the Self era. And for the most part have avoided a down season for 2+ decades.

I'm laughing at the "for the most part" part. We haven't been below the 4-line one single time in Bill's tenure. Since 2006-07, we've been a 1 more than we've been a 2-4 combined.

Kansas math is a bitch, in other words.

Yes, down season "for KU" under Self is still a "good season".

Feels like he should get more love nationally than he does.

[Back2Lawrence]

He’s nationally revered and respected.

Except by many more than casual NCAA fans who think he’s a cheater.

But we are KU fans, so we ignore that (those) part(s)

[jfish26]

He’s nationally revered and respected.

Except by many more than casual NCAA fans who think he’s a cheater.

But we are KU fans, so we ignore that (those) part(s)

We call come at this with our particular biases.

But I do not think the level of reverence and respect is in line with his achievements relative to the field. And I think the somehow-still-lingering early-round stink is WAY out of line with his shortcomings relative to the field.

[DeletedUser]

He’s nationally revered and respected.

Except by many more than casual NCAA fans who think he’s a cheater.

But we are KU fans, so we ignore that (those) part(s)

We call come at this with our particular biases.

But I do not think the level of reverence and respect is in line with his achievements relative to the field. And I think the somehow-still-lingering early-round stink is WAY out of line with his shortcomings relative to the field.

I think the early round exit stuff has worn off to everyone other than KU fans for the most part.

Purdue and Virginia helped with that.