Let’s have a war!

[ousdahl]

Happy 15th anniversary of this, btw.

[randylahey]

The deeper you dig the more you find the narrative that "putin/russia are bad and ukraine is innocent" is just a load of shit

[jfish26]

I don’t think Russia is justified. Once again, that’s you trying to put words into my mouth.

If anything, I think the current approach of piecemeal support for Ukraine is benefitting Russia. Putin IS fulfilling his goal of imperial expansion, after all.

That’s a big part of the reason why I think we desperately need to rethink our strategy here.

These are words - uncut, unchanged - that came out of your mouth today:

I think your definition of warmongering applies very much to what we’re putting Ukraine in a situation to do.

we flood the place with weapons of war, and war happens.

To suggest otherwise is some stubborn stance along the lines of “but I just refuse to consider that the common denominator in the gun violence thread is guns.”

Do these words not mean that you think we, by arming Ukraine, are at least partially responsible for Russia attacking Ukraine?

Oh I absolutely think we are at least partially responsible for Russia attacking Ukraine.

The only way one could think otherwise is to, whether intentionally or not, completely ignore so much of the context of the situation - which, heads up, you and several others here appear to have done. But, again, we’ve been over that.

But to think we’re at least partially responsible for Russia invading Ukraine, is not to say I think Russia is justified in invading Ukraine. Again, we’ve been over that too.

Again again, this seems futile.

Ok. I can’t find the sweet spot you have, where Russia was not justified in invading Ukraine, and yet the United States is at least partially responsible for Russia invading Ukraine.

[ousdahl]

Yea.

And I guess it doesn’t have to do with whether Russia was justified in invading Ukraine, cuz apparently we agree they were not.

As far as I can tell, it’s cuz you cannot, and/or will not, consider any scenario at all in which the United States should bear any responsibility whatsoever for our own militancy abroad.

If our gummint wants to furnish weapons, or train extremists, or build bases, or stage coups, or whatever; I suppose you think it’s up to the rest of the world to just put up with it.

[MICHHAWK]

If our gummint wants to furnish weapons, or train extremists, or build bases, or stage coups, or whatever; I suppose you think it’s up to the rest of the world to just put up with it.

exactly. now you're getting it.

we are the United States of America. we can do whatever the phucque we want.

[jhawks99]

There ya have it Oussie

[jfish26]

Yea.

And I guess it doesn’t have to do with whether Russia was justified in invading Ukraine, cuz apparently we agree they were not.

As far as I can tell, it’s cuz you cannot, and/or will not, consider any scenario at all in which the United States should bear any responsibility whatsoever for our own militancy abroad.

If our gummint wants to furnish weapons, or train extremists, or build bases, or stage coups, or whatever; I suppose you think it’s up to the rest of the world to just put up with it.

You keep going to the poles on this, and of course reality is in the middle.

I have never said we’re blameless generally - far from it.

But the bridge I cannot cross is saying we have any responsibility for Russia waging ground war on Ukraine civilians and territory. My opinion is that that’s a pro-Putin talking point that waters down the blame on Putin, for choosing without justification to wage ground war on Ukraine and its civilians and territory.

[Sparko]

Interesting to see Putin's bootlickers sally forth.

[ousdahl]

Yea.

And I guess it doesn’t have to do with whether Russia was justified in invading Ukraine, cuz apparently we agree they were not.

As far as I can tell, it’s cuz you cannot, and/or will not, consider any scenario at all in which the United States should bear any responsibility whatsoever for our own militancy abroad.

If our gummint wants to furnish weapons, or train extremists, or build bases, or stage coups, or whatever; I suppose you think it’s up to the rest of the world to just put up with it.

You keep going to the poles on this, and of course reality is in the middle.

I have never said we’re blameless generally - far from it.

But the bridge I cannot cross is saying we have any responsibility for Russia waging ground war on Ukraine civilians and territory. My opinion is that that’s a pro-Putin talking point that waters down the blame on Putin, for choosing without justification to wage ground war on Ukraine and its civilians and territory.

This contradicts itself.

I’m the one suggesting reality is in the middle, and that there’s blame to go around.

When you say things like, “the bridge I cannot cross,” that seems to be going (and sticking) to a pole about this.

If you can at least consider blame for the U.S. generally, then try to exhaust all possible angles in which an objective observer might consider blame for the U.S. in the Ukraine situation.

Consider this a safe space to do so. Play devil’s advocate! Go for downer pity! Get guttermetered here!

[jfish26]

Lessons in contradiction from “Russia isn’t justified at all, but the United States is partially responsible.”

[ousdahl]

Sigh.

I guess it’s some disagreement between responsibility and justification. Honestly seems a little false equivalence-y.

Let’s try the analogy of the drunken bar fight - again.

So one guy clenches his pool cue and squares up and gets in another guy’s face, screaming at him and daring him to swing.

That’s not appropriate!

But say the other guy DOES swing.

That’s not appropriate, either!

They’re both gonna get kicked out of the bar, no matter how many times they try to explain to the bouncer that, “…but HE started it!”

I think you could reasonably say guy 1 bears at least partial responsibility for starting a fight, right? But I’m also not sure that means the other guy was justified in swinging, either.

Or, let’s try to flip the script - again.

Say Russia tried to meddle in like Mexico. Or Canada. Or Cuba! They start supplying arms, and training anti-American extremists, and staging a coup (or at least benefiting from a coup that someone conveniently staged)

I think we can suggest with a high degree of confidence that Fish would be here 1. Insisting Russia is completely and unilaterally responsible for the conflict, and 2. Insisting the U.S. is entirely justified in invading whatever country is being armed and trained.

[jfish26]

Sigh.

I guess it’s some disagreement between responsibility and justification. Honestly seems a little false equivalence-y.

Let’s try the analogy of the drunken bar fight - again.

So one guy clenches his pool cue and squares up and gets in another guy’s face, screaming at him and daring him to swing.

That’s not appropriate!

But say the other guy DOES swing.

That’s not appropriate, either!

They’re both gonna get kicked out of the bar, no matter how many times they try to explain to the bouncer that, “…but HE started it!”

I think you could reasonably say guy 1 bears at least partial responsibility for starting a fight, right? But I’m also not sure that means the other guy was justified in swinging, either.

Or, let’s try to flip the script - again.

Say Russia tried to meddle in like Mexico. Or Canada. Or Cuba! They start supplying arms, and training anti-American extremists, and staging a coup (or at least benefiting from a coup that someone conveniently staged)

I think we can suggest with a high degree of confidence that Fish would be here 1. Insisting Russia is completely and unilaterally responsible for the conflict, and 2. Insisting the U.S. is entirely justified in invading whatever country is being armed and trained.

I don't follow what, in your analogy, getting kicked out of the bar has to do with anything.

What you are doing here comes off to me, unfortunately, as something like "she was asking for it." As if there is some degree of permission (for the aggressor) implied by the victim's behavior.

I just don't see it that way.

Where Ukraine gave up deterrent weapons in exchange for Russia's agreement not to attack, and Russia attacked Ukraine in violation of the agreement in 2014 and then built up for another one...I just don't see how Ukraine preparing to defend itself (and our involvement in that) rises to the level of bearing "responsibility" for Russia attacking.

[ousdahl]

Apparently somebody just bombed Beirut.

Tho, no word yet on whether Lebanon has a right to defend themselves.

[jhawks99]

Israel is saying it wasn't them. Prolly the Ukrainians.

[MICHHAWK]

whoever it was. cool.

[KUTradition]

Rambo III on AMC

Stallone giving it to the russkies

[ousdahl]

Now Yemen being bombed

[jfish26]

You are, of course, aware that that’s a very particular way of describing what is happening.

[KUTradition]

houthis finding out what happens when you poke the bear

[jfish26]

Rooster won’t have crowed three times before the bad-faith Rs breathlessly declare this an impeachable offense.