Bill Self w/ 2

[pdub]

Not even going to click through that.
1. Tyshawn is no. 9 on the first page. Already bad.
2. Put em all on the same page.

[twocoach]

The issue with you not thinking they clicked stares straight in the face of one of our highest Kenpom rated squads ever. They certainly could have done better in the NCAA tournament, I agree.

Thanks.

I think we’re not quite on the same page tho.

Yea I realize 10 was one of the highest rated kenpom ever. But kenpom is a quantitative metric right? When “clicking” is more a qualitative thing, like an eye test or a “man this team right now just looks good” sort of assessment.

I qualitatively just don’t remember that team gelling like you hope a team will. The success came from all the individual talent, more so than from being the most cohesively best-executing team possible.

But maybe that’s a historical revisionism of sorts, caused by the fact that yes they def tripped on their own dicks against UNI.

I’m trying to remember what I thought of it at the time, and whether I was surprised by the upset, or actually not that surprised cuz I was already critical of a team built around letting a fat dood play hero ball, which isn’t exactly the best formula for tournament success.

No one remembers how well a team from 14 years ago clicked without applying some major revisionist history to it. It's simply not possible.

Sherron is polarizing. Some people give more weight to the role he had in the 08 title and his "I'm the man" thing, some just count wins, and some are more affected by the off the court stuff and the disappointing finishes of the two teams he was the leader on.

[pdub]

I don’t think 09 was a disappointing finish. We overachieved considering all the players who left.

[ousdahl]

Sherron is polarizing. Some people give more weight to the role he had

Bro there’s gotta be a better way to phrase that.

But yea, he was our more dynamic guard who got the Ferrari keys down the stretch in the natty. And his steal+3 is in the discussion for being almost/at least as/maybe more important than The Shot.

[ousdahl]

And yea 09 was a honeymoon year, but even then, and with a pretty empty cupboard, we won the league and got a S16 out of it

[pdub]

And played Michigan State better than I expected we would.

[twocoach]

Maybe I just can't get past the fact that he showed up for his most important season as the senior leader of a really good team fat and out of shape and then got punked by Northern Iowa.

[MICHHAWK]

almost every senior leader we ever had. lost the last game of their KU career.

[twocoach]

almost every senior leader we ever had. lost the last game of their KU career.

The loss is not the part of it I have a problem with. The opponent and how the game was played is what bugged me. I don't feel like getting bombarded by Sherron fans all day so let's just leave it alone and back away.

[jfish26]

And played Michigan State better than I expected we would.

Is there a coach out there who is coasting on a more stale reputation than that guy?

Since his only title - which was won in a season that started in the previous millennium - he's been to four Final Fours. Just one since the 2009-10 season.

[pdub]

I think he’s a good coach who hasn’t kept up with the new recruiting process. I like the guy.

[jfish26]

I think he’s a good coach who hasn’t kept up with the new recruiting process. I like the guy.

I like him fine, I guess, but his problems go WAY further back than NIL/portal. He's a solid B+/A- who gets treated like he belongs in the same conversation as Bill. He does not.

[pdub]

I think the new recruiting process I’m talking about goes back a bit further than that.

[RainbowsandUnicorns]

I think he’s a good coach who hasn’t kept up with the new recruiting process. I like the guy.

I like him fine, I guess, but his problems go WAY further back than NIL/portal. He's a solid B+/A- who gets treated like he belongs in the same conversation as Bill. He does not.

8 Final Fours doesn't put you in the same conversation as 3 Final Fours?

[pdub]

Four final fours.

[twocoach]

And played Michigan State better than I expected we would.

Is there a coach out there who is coasting on a more stale reputation than that guy?

Since his only title - which was won in a season that started in the previous millennium - he's been to four Final Fours. Just one since the 2009-10 season.

Michigan State has made 2 Final Fours since 2010; in 2015 when as a 7 seed he beat the 2 seed, 3 seed and 4 seed to advance and in 2019 when he beat Coach K's team with Zion Williamson on it in the Elite Eight.

Izzo and Self are very similar in that they require their players to play tough and aggressive and do better with multiyear players than they do with OAD type guys as their systems are more complex. Izzo is more insistent on defense and rebounding while Self is a better designer of offensive sets. Izzo schedules a lot of tough games in non-con resulting in a team that has more losses and can be under seeded relative to their abilities come tourney time. But it has proven out over time that it helps his teams be ready come tourney time. Bill Self has made 4 Final Fours at Kansas with 8 years where he didn't make it out of the first weekend. In that same time period, Izzo has made 5 Final Fours with 9 years where he didn't make it out of the first weekend.

[jfish26]

You're correct - the chart I looked at was a bit confusing and I misread it.

I stand by the overall point. Izzo is a second-tier coach who gets treated like royalty. Same idea for the program.

[DeletedUser]

Izzo is OVERRATED

[twocoach]

He just has a little more variation to his seasons due to his style and scheduling method. Because he isn't as great an offensive schemer as Self, his teams have less margin for error when their shots aren't dropping. Self wins a lot of games for his teams even when they aren't shooting well because he adjusts better.

Izzo is still easily a Top 5 active coach for me. No way I can think of 5 other coaches I'd rather have coaching my team come tourney time. He's no Self, I agree. But he's freaking good. If your top tier is just Bill Self then yeah, he's "second tier".

[pdub]

Izzo is not a second tier coach.