Let’s have a war!

[MICHHAWK]

i love it when we drop bombs on the middle east.

everyday is a good day to drop bombs on the middle east.

[twocoach]

Now Yemen being bombed

https://www.reuters.com/world/us-britai ... 024-01-11/

[RainbowsandUnicorns]

I read millions of Yemenis (Notice the similarity to the word penis?) have taken to the streets to "protest" against the USA, Great Britain, and Israel - and vow revenge.
Ok fuckers, bring it on. You think Gaza looks bad these days?
Of course I understand the implications and ramifications if the USA were to bomb the shit out of Yemen, and I hope it DOESN'T happen.
Stay tuned.

[ousdahl]

Omg you guys.

This thread just keeps getting worse.

On that note, let’s go for a big thick buttery homestyle serving of some good old fashioned lulz:


https://x.com/joebiden/status/122596358 ... 8ZiR9WCcTg

[jfish26]

Omg you guys.

This thread just keeps getting worse.

On that note, let’s go for a big thick buttery homestyle serving of some good old fashioned lulz:


https://x.com/joebiden/status/122596358 ... 8ZiR9WCcTg

Here's what you linked (from 2020).

As President, I will use military power responsibly and as a last resort. We will not go back to forever wars in the Middle East.

Iran-adjacent terrorists, with a literal mission statement of "death to the U.S.," attacked dozens of commercial vessels over the last couple months, against the backdrop of the ongoing Israel/Hamas conflict.

What was irresponsible about our actions?

What "resorts" remained?

Obviously there is not (yet?) anything about this to mark it a "forever war."

[DeletedUser]

Omg you guys.

This thread just keeps getting worse.

On that note, let’s go for a big thick buttery homestyle serving of some good old fashioned lulz:


https://x.com/joebiden/status/122596358 ... 8ZiR9WCcTg

Here's what you linked (from 2020).

As President, I will use military power responsibly and as a last resort. We will not go back to forever wars in the Middle East.

Iran-adjacent terrorists, with a literal mission statement of "death to the U.S.," attacked dozens of commercial vessels over the last couple months, against the backdrop of the ongoing Israel/Hamas conflict.

What was irresponsible about our actions?

What "resorts" remained?

Obviously there is not (yet?) anything about this to mark it a "forever war."

You're still playing this game?

[jfish26]

I think it's interesting. I think most of this stuff is shades-of-gray stuff, and I think teasing out where the lines are is interesting.

[ousdahl]

I think it's interesting too.

and I'm down for "teasing out where the lines are," or at least making an attempt.

but, with all due respect - seriously, I have a legit amount of respect for you fish! - I'm just not sure these discussions are productive.

from my point of view, it's because you are so conditioned to not even consider considering criticism for at least one side involved.

but, I know, I know I know I know, from your point of view, I'm just a bad guy propagandist.

but, for the sake of devil's advocate downer pity, or at least for the sake of discussion - would you be willing to attempt criticism of all sides involved? Even if it means considering the US on the world geopolitical stage as possibly something less than some sorta unconditionally unilateral comic book superhero good guy?

cuz, fwiw, if just for the sake of discussion - I'm willing to consider myself as a Putin parrot, among other bad guys.

[DeletedUser]

You think it's JFish's fault that these conversations aren't productive?

[Shirley]

A pair of Ukrainian Bradleys duel a Russian T-90M in Stepove, Avdiivka and win. The battle lasts nearly ten minutes and ends with the T-90M defeated. It is some of the best footage we have seen of a Bradley engagement in Ukraine so far. The first Bradley knocks out the T-90Ms optics and pulls back with a second Bradley arriving to finish it off. Also included is the geolocation.

[ousdahl]

to attempt an answer at your questions:

"What was irresponsible about our actions?"

well, we DID bomb like dozens of targets across a nation on the other side of the world, in response to their fucking with cargo ships, which itself was a response to us and our proxies doing...what, exactly?

"What "resorts" remained?"

We could, like, reconsider our policy of bajillions worth of weapons to Israel, who is currently wiping Gaza off the map, West Bank too. Realize, most of the world, and particularly the Muslim and POC world, views this less as a reasonable response to the 10/7 terrorist attack, and more as a genocide, for which we are at least complicit.

Much of the rest of the world also might view our bombing Yemen not as some reasonable response to their fucking with cargo ships, but as more bullying of a "resistance movement" who is tired of western interests running off with all their oil and strong-arming anyone who objects.

or, maybe that's just more bad guy propaganda.

Now, I know I sort of answered your first question with a question, but that's getting to some important context here.

So, if I may ask a couple more questions yet, for the sake of discussion:

Why would Iran-adjacent terrorists have a literal mission statement of "death to the U.S."?

why would they attack dozens of commercial vessels? What were those vessels carrying, from where, to where?

What does the backdrop of the Israel/Hamas conflict have to do with any of it?

[DeletedUser]

.... at least for the sake of discussion - would you be willing to attempt criticism of all sides involved? Even if it means considering the US on the world geopolitical stage as possibly something less than some sorta unconditionally unilateral comic book superhero good guy?

JFC. This again?

NOBODY thinks the US is an "unconditionally unilateral...good guy".

NOBODY has said that. Ever.

How many fucking times are we going to do this. You are just creating narratives that aren't how anyone actually feels and then bloviating on (and on, and on, and on...) to make yourself feel self righteous and enlightened.

[ousdahl]

oh, and speaking of Ukraine...

U.S. Military Aid to Ukraine Was Poorly Tracked, Pentagon Report Says

The report found that American officials and diplomats had failed to quickly or fully account for all of the nearly 40,000 weapons sent to the front.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/11/worl ... raine.html

[jfish26]

.... at least for the sake of discussion - would you be willing to attempt criticism of all sides involved? Even if it means considering the US on the world geopolitical stage as possibly something less than some sorta unconditionally unilateral comic book superhero good guy?

JFC. This again?

NOBODY thinks the US is an "unconditionally unilateral...good guy".

NOBODY has said that. Ever.

How many fucking times are we going to do this. You are just creating narratives that aren't how anyone actually feels and then bloviating on (and on, and on, and on...) to make yourself feel self righteous and enlightened.

I’m pretty sure the ONLY absolute I’ve dealt in on this topic (broadly!) is that, in my opinion, the price of admission for good-faith discussions on these topics is acknowledging that nothing anyone in the entire world did, recently or historically or both, comes remotely CLOSE to justifying Putin’s war on Ukrainian civilians.

In my opinion, if you come at this discussion from any other starting place, then productive, good-faith discussions are nearly impossible.

[jfish26]

oh, and speaking of Ukraine...

U.S. Military Aid to Ukraine Was Poorly Tracked, Pentagon Report Says

The report found that American officials and diplomats had failed to quickly or fully account for all of the nearly 40,000 weapons sent to the front.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/11/worl ... raine.html

What exactly are your expectations here? It seems naive to expect anything different in the context of a conventional war on multiple, large fronts.

[KUTradition]

[ousdahl]

I'm afraid you're again conflating valid objective criticism for all parties involved in the Ukraine/Russia conflict, for "justifying" Putin's actions here. I don't mean to justify a thing Putin's done!

It's just that I don't mean to justify a thing the US/NATO has done, either - coups! propaganda! pep rallies! weapons weapons weapons! take yer diplomacy and shove it!

That's to say, willing to consider the US/NATO/west's actions, along with Ukraine's actions, as part of the problem too, rather than stuff of the "good guys" that the rest of the world should recognize as such, and/or just have to put up with, as you apparently keep doing.

In the Ukraine aid thread, I asked you consider any angle of criticism of the US's actions, and you very stubbornly refused, all while also parroting shamelessly propagandish language of your own: "Illegal! Unilateral! Unprovoked!" (for real, how come words like that never seem to be published in history books?)

These conversations are just not productive.

[TDub]

These conversations are just not productive.

No fuckin shit? Ya don't say?

[ousdahl]

oh, and speaking of Ukraine...

U.S. Military Aid to Ukraine Was Poorly Tracked, Pentagon Report Says

The report found that American officials and diplomats had failed to quickly or fully account for all of the nearly 40,000 weapons sent to the front.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/11/worl ... raine.html

What exactly are your expectations here? It seems naive to expect anything different in the context of a conventional war on multiple, large fronts.

I've worked in offices in which we had to account for every single pen and staple and post-it note. I've worked in ski shops in which we had to account for every single boot and pole and sock. Yes, even CoyDC!

When it comes to something as significant as weapons sales, and weapons sales to a country known for its corruption generally, and weapons black market specifically; and weapons funded by your and my tax dollars, it would only seem wise to keep a little better eye on these things, wouldn't it?

Heck, the Pentagon itself has failed 6 straight audits, yet its budget just keeps growing.

at what point do you say something might be a little fishy here dude? (no pun intended, lol)

[jfish26]

I'm afraid you're again conflating valid objective criticism for all parties involved in the Ukraine/Russia conflict, for "justifying" Putin's actions here. I don't mean to justify a thing Putin's done!

It's just that I don't mean to justify a thing the US/NATO has done, either - coups! propaganda! pep rallies! weapons weapons weapons! take yer diplomacy and shove it!

That's to say, willing to consider the US/NATO/west's actions, along with Ukraine's actions, as part of the problem too, rather than stuff of the "good guys" that the rest of the world should recognize as such, and/or just have to put up with, as you apparently keep doing.

In the Ukraine aid thread, I asked you consider any angle of criticism of the US's actions, and you very stubbornly refused, all while also parroting shamelessly propagandish language of your own: "Illegal! Unilateral! Unprovoked!" (for real, how come words like that never seem to be published in history books?)

These conversations are just not productive.

You can keep folding and unfolding the paper in as many ways as you’d like, but when it’s laying flat on the page, you’re still reading from Putin’s script.

I have never ever ever ever ever said the US or NATO has a clean record.

What I have said, and what I will stand behind, is that nothing anyone did, recently or historically, adds up to anything that justifies calling Putin’s war on Ukrainian civilians anything less than unilateral and unprovoked.