Let’s have a war!

[ousdahl]

and what you have said, and what you will stand behind, simply refuses to consider so much of the material context of the situation!

admitting the US and NATO don't have a clean record, just doesn't seem to mix with also refusing to consider that record in the context of the situation at hand.

more generally - the rhetoric and the mindset of "unilateral" and "unprovoked" is such a black-and-white thing. As such, it's simply incompatible with a discussion on "shades of gray."

[jfish26]

and what you have said, and what you will stand behind, simply refuses to consider so much of the material context of the situation!

admitting the US and NATO don't have a clean record, just doesn't seem to mix with also refusing to consider that record in the context of the situation at hand.

more generally - the rhetoric and the mindset of "unilateral" and "unprovoked" is such a black-and-white thing. As such, it's simply incompatible with a discussion on "shades of gray."

I find there to be no shades of gray in evaluating Putin’s choice to make war on Ukrainian civilians.

[jfish26]

But, to be clear, that is not to exonerate the US or anyone else from judgment on their own conduct.

However, nothing in the public record means, to me, that Putin’s choice to make war on Ukrainian civilians is describable as anything but unilateral and unprovoked.

[ousdahl]

yea.

and to view a complex geopolitical conflict with parties from all across the world contributing materially, as actually some simple black-and-white unprovoked unilateral one-sided sort of thing, is a testament to just how effectively the western war propaganda has conditioned you to be.

It's conditioned you to ignore the coups, ignore just why McCain and Biden and such were parading around Ukraine after the coup, ignore the weapons, ignore the fighting that's been going on in Ukraine (and elsewhere!) for years and decades, ignore the refused attempts at diplomacy, ignore all that - unless some prescribed rhetoric campaign tells you to.

Again, if we're gonna insist on such black-and-white views here, you should prob make some attempt to distinguish why the same dipshits who pulled "WMDs In Iraq" on us, are suddenly playing us straight about the Ukraine/Russia conflict, among others.

If I recall, you have even the only poster to attempt to distinguish that issue. And your attempt was basically, "but Russia bad!"

Yea. Russia bad! Bear in mind tho, so much of your and my and our perception of Putin and Russia and the rest of the world at large, is overwhelmingly shaped by WMDs in Iraq-sort of rhetoric to begin with. (ever hear of the Cold War?)

And to fuss about a war on civilians in the context of Ukraine/Russia, while otherwise not offering a peep on what Israel is doing to Gaza (and has been doing to Palestinians for decades!), is quite the double standard as well.

(and here's another reminder that these hawkish policies are loosing points for Biden among the younger and more progressive voting demographics he needed to win four years ago, and needs again to win this November)

[RainbowsandUnicorns]

oh, and speaking of Ukraine...

U.S. Military Aid to Ukraine Was Poorly Tracked, Pentagon Report Says

The report found that American officials and diplomats had failed to quickly or fully account for all of the nearly 40,000 weapons sent to the front.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/11/worl ... raine.html

The USA can't even track where the Secretary of Defense is. What makes you think they could/would track where the military aid to Ukraine went?

[ousdahl]

I never said they would!

Or perhaps even could!

The thing is, the fact we don’t or can’t track weapons procurement (particularly to a historically corrupt country with a notorious black market for weapons) is reason to think twice about what exactly we’re doing here, rather than keep doubling down on as much.

And that’s not meant as support for Putin! It’s meant as a desire for more accountability on our own end.

[Sparko]

Large war. Many moving pieces, many out of the boneyard. Many on the right are in Putin's camp. Not the easiest power move ever

[jfish26]

yea.

and to view a complex geopolitical conflict with parties from all across the world contributing materially, as actually some simple black-and-white unprovoked unilateral one-sided sort of thing, is a testament to just how effectively the western war propaganda has conditioned you to be.

It's conditioned you to ignore the coups, ignore just why McCain and Biden and such were parading around Ukraine after the coup, ignore the weapons, ignore the fighting that's been going on in Ukraine (and elsewhere!) for years and decades, ignore the refused attempts at diplomacy, ignore all that - unless some prescribed rhetoric campaign tells you to.

Again, if we're gonna insist on such black-and-white views here, you should prob make some attempt to distinguish why the same dipshits who pulled "WMDs In Iraq" on us, are suddenly playing us straight about the Ukraine/Russia conflict, among others.

If I recall, you have even the only poster to attempt to distinguish that issue. And your attempt was basically, "but Russia bad!"

Yea. Russia bad! Bear in mind tho, so much of your and my and our perception of Putin and Russia and the rest of the world at large, is overwhelmingly shaped by WMDs in Iraq-sort of rhetoric to begin with. (ever hear of the Cold War?)

And to fuss about a war on civilians in the context of Ukraine/Russia, while otherwise not offering a peep on what Israel is doing to Gaza (and has been doing to Palestinians for decades!), is quite the double standard as well.

(and here's another reminder that these hawkish policies are loosing points for Biden among the younger and more progressive voting demographics he needed to win four years ago, and needs again to win this November)

JFish26: specific, limited point

ousdahl: yes but have you considered these twelve things that are outside the scope of your specific, limited point

JFish26: yes, I have, and they are worth considering and discussing, but they do not change my specific, limited point

ousdahl: ok but have you considered these twelve things that are outside the scope of your specific, limited point

Repeat.

[KUTradition]

‘round and ‘round and ‘round and ‘round…

[ousdahl]

I just think the shades of gray are interesting, ya know

[ProudBoy]

Влад одобрил

[Sparko]

Slava Ukraini.

[ousdahl]

okey dokey then.

so yea, we just cannot agree that the material conditions leading up to the Ukraine/Russia conflict, are material to the Ukraine/Russia conflict. There is no context or details that are relevant here. The conflict just sorta...happened.

moving right along.

How about Yemen, then?

There's the years of imperial meddling and the bajillions in weapons sales and the multiple presidential administrations and the proxy forces and the civilian casualties and the human rights violations and the ongoing perpetual fighting with no end in sight, despite the fact that let's face it most Americans once again could not find Yemen on a map if their life depended on it.

And that's not even to mention the whole angle of "well Merica can look the other way about a genocide but we draw the line at shipping delays!"

I guess none of that has anything to do with anything, either.

This latest conflict in Yemen, like the latest conflict in Ukraine, once again...just...sorta....happened.

[Shirley]

Posted 3 hours ago:

A scandal has erupted between officers of the Russian army units in Ukraine and former prisoners who have been sent to the war. A group of officers beat soldiers who were ex-convicts. After the opposite side’s response, the officers left the area. However, one of the officers threatened the ex-prisoners by shooting in the air. Footage from the scene of the incident has been spread on Telegram channels.

"Officers are beating us, they want to kill us" - tension between Russian soldiers and officers

[japhy]

Posted 3 hours ago:

A scandal has erupted between officers of the Russian army units in Ukraine and former prisoners who have been sent to the war. A group of officers beat soldiers who were ex-convicts. After the opposite side’s response, the officers left the area. However, one of the officers threatened the ex-prisoners by shooting in the air. Footage from the scene of the incident has been spread on Telegram channels.

"Officers are beating us, they want to kill us" - tension between Russian soldiers and officers

If you can't see how this is a direct response to US hegemony in Honduras in 1911 you have your head buried in the sand!

[ousdahl]

Leave the Soto Cano military base out of this!

Since you brought it up. And since, you know, it’s like so totally normal for countries to have military bases in other countries.

Speaking of - Iran-backed militants or whatever claim they bombed some sorta Israeli base in northern Iraq. Totally normal.

More U.S. troops being sent to Iraq and Syria in response.

[DCHawk1]

This sounds promising.

Joyce Karam
@Joyce_Karam
·
1h
UPDATE: Pakistan - Iran escalation

• Pakistan recalls amb. in Tehran, kicks out Iran amb.
• Iranian reports on border clashes, IRGC commander killed
• China mediation failed: local media
• Unconfirmed reports that border shut
• Saudi mediating
• India stmt backs IRAN

[jfish26]

This sounds promising.

Joyce Karam
@Joyce_Karam
·
1h
UPDATE: Pakistan - Iran escalation

• Pakistan recalls amb. in Tehran, kicks out Iran amb.
• Iranian reports on border clashes, IRGC commander killed
• China mediation failed: local media
• Unconfirmed reports that border shut
• Saudi mediating
• India stmt backs IRAN

When reached for comment, MICH screamed:

[zsn]

This sounds promising.

Joyce Karam
@Joyce_Karam
·
1h
UPDATE: Pakistan - Iran escalation

• Pakistan recalls amb. in Tehran, kicks out Iran amb.
• Iranian reports on border clashes, IRGC commander killed
• China mediation failed: local media
• Unconfirmed reports that border shut
• Saudi mediating
• India stmt backs IRAN

The alliances in this skirmish will make Vizzini’s logic for which cup contains iocaine (from Princess Bride) sound like elementary math.

[ousdahl]

I dunno if “promising” is the word I’d use for headlines like “escalation” and “mediation failed”