Let’s have a war!

[TDub]

thats what Nevaeh Sunshine Lily was saying!

[KUTradition]

EU committing $54b to Ukraine

[jfish26]

EU committing $54b to Ukraine

I genuinely wonder what percentage of the folks vociferously opposed to supporting Ukraine have even been to European cities and towns that were targeted in WWI/II. This is not ancient history.

[ousdahl]

Sigh.

[Sparko]

Ukraine sank a frigate using its own technology drone boats today. A frigate that had been attacking population centers as part of the Russian invasion.

[jfish26]

https://heathercoxrichardson.substack.c ... ry-31-2024

Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene (R-GA), a Trump loyalist, has said she would move to overthrow [Rep. Mike] Johnson as speaker if he puts Ukraine funding up for a vote.

Meanwhile, Ukraine is running short of weapons and ammunition.

Tonight, Senator Angus King (I-ME) spoke on the Senate floor about what U.S. refusal to aid Ukraine would mean.

King harked back to the failure of European allies to stop Hitler when it would have been relatively easy. “Whenever people write to my office” asking why we are supporting Ukraine, he said, “I answer, Google Sudetenland, 1938.” “We could have stopped a murderous dictator who was bent on geographic expansion…at a relatively low cost. The result of not doing so was 55 million deaths.”

The upcoming vote on whether to support “the people of Ukraine as they fight for our values,” King said, “will echo throughout the history of this country and the history of the world for generations…. If we back away, walk away, pull out and leave the Ukrainians without the resources to defend themselves, it will compromise the interests of this country for 50 years. It will be viewed as one of the greatest geopolitical mistakes of the 21st century.”

Abandoning Ukraine would embolden Russian president Vladimir Putin, King said. Putin “told us in 2005 that he felt that the greatest catastrophe of the 20th century was the dissolution of the Soviet Union. He has…pursued the remedy to that catastrophe in his eyes ever since…. In 2008 he gobbled up part of what had been an independent country of Georgia. In 2014…Crimea and eastern Ukraine. [In] 2022, he tried for the rest of Ukraine.”

People say Putin will stop with Ukraine, King said, but “the Finns don't think so. The Swedes don't think so. The Baltic countries don't think so, and the Finns and the Swedes know Russia.”

“Maya Angelou once said if someone tells you who they are, you should believe them,” King said. “Putin has told us who he is. He’s an autocrat. He’s an authoritarian. And he wants to rebuild the Soviet Union. And I believe he wouldn't stop there…. We have to take him at his word…. He despises the west. He thinks NATO is an aggressive alliance, somehow designed to invade or otherwise threaten Russia. NATO doesn't want to invade Russia. NATO wants to keep the lines where they are.” King noted that Russia’s invasion of Ukraine was “the first crossing of a border of this nature since World War II.”

“[W]hat we're looking at here,” King said, “is…the struggle between the idea of democracy and the rule of law and authoritarianism and totalitarianism…. Ukraine is the opening wedge in that…conflict.” Turning away from Ukraine would embolden Putin, King said, but not only Putin. “f we cut and run in Ukraine, that will change Xi Jinping's calculus about Taiwan. He's going to say well, the Americans aren't going to stick. We don't have to worry too much about them helping the Taiwanese defend themselves.”

King, who sits on the Senate Intelligence Committee, identified the centerpiece of U.S. foreign policy and warned what is at stake if the U.S. abandons Ukraine. “Our asymmetric advantage in the world right now is allies,” King said. “China has customers. We have allies…. But our allies are going to say well, wait a minute. You’re with us now but when the going gets tough and you have to maybe have a budget supplemental to stick with us, you're going to walk away. It's going to undermine the confidence of our allies, and in places like Japan and South Korea, they may say we can't count on the Americans to defend us.”

If we abandon Ukraine, he said, we will have destroyed “our ability to negotiate and make deals in the future. Who the heck is going to deal with us if they know we can't be trusted?.... What an…incredible…self-inflicted wound on this country.” King recalled that in the 1780s, France had stood with the fledgling U.S. even as the Revolutionary War dragged on, and noted that “[t]here’s a reasonable chance we wouldn't be the United States of America today, if our ally had walked away…. The whole idea of an alliance is that you can count on somebody when the times are tough. We're sending ammunition. They're sending lives.”

Addressing right-wing talking points about aid to Ukraine, King said that U.S. aid to Ukraine is “one of the best and strongest and most closely accounted for provisions of aid ever” and that “the idea that nobody else is contributing and Europe isn't doing its part is just bunk.” Europe has given far more to Ukraine than the U.S. as a percentage of the wealth each country produces, he said, and other countries have also taken in millions of refugees.

“[D]emocracy matters,” King said. “Values matter. Freedom of expression, the rule of law matter, and that’s what’s at stake…. This is a historic struggle between authoritarianism, arbitrariness, surveillance, and the radical idea that people can govern themselves. That's what this is all about. This is a battle for the soul of our democracy in the world…. It's worth fighting for. And in this case we don't even have to do the fighting. We just have to supply the arms and ammunition.”

“I have a question for my colleagues,” King said. “When the history of this day is written, as it surely will be, do you really want to be recorded as being on the side of Vladimir Putin?... Or on the side of China, as they contemplate the invasion of Taiwan…. [H]istory's going to record this vote as one of the most important votes that any of us have ever made.”

For his part, King said, “I want to stand on the side of resisting authoritarianism, on the side of democracy, on the side of the values that the country has stood for and that people have been fighting for 250 years.”

[MICHHAWK]

didn't the eu just donate something like 50billion+ to the ukraine. they should be set for awhile.

[Shirley]

didn't the eu just donate something like 50billion+ to the ukraine. they should be set for awhile.

Try to keep up. It's 50 billion euros over 4 years.

From ABC News:

27 European Union countries sealed a deal Thursday to provide Ukraine with 50 billion euros ($54 billion) in support for its war-ravaged economy after Hungary dropped weeks of threats to veto the measure.

European Council President Charles Michel said the agreement “locks in steadfast, long-term, predictable funding for Ukraine” and shows the EU's determination "to support their future, to support freedom.”

The aid package — about two-thirds loans and one-third grants — is not intended to help fight off Russia. Apart from supporting the economy and paying for rebuilding, it’s also aimed at setting Ukraine up for future EU membership. The EU has a separate plan for funding arms and ammunition.

...Political infighting in the EU and the United States has held up funding. A combined total of more than $100 billion is at stake.

Michel said the EU's move would also send “a signal to the American taxpayers,” which could help the Biden administration in its efforts to get a Ukraine support package through Congress.

...In December, the 26 other EU leaders agreed that the $54 billion package would run from 2024 through 2027. They also agreed to make Ukraine a candidate for EU membership, which Orbán reluctantly accepted.

...

[ousdahl]

Welp.

In this week’s episode of, “Sorry you guys I know you hate me for doing this but SERIOUSLY HOW AM I THE ONLY ONE CONCERNED ABOUT US GIVING WEAPONS TO RIGHT-WING NATIONALISTS WHO END UP ON TRIAL AT THE HAGUE FOR GENOCIDE?!?!”

The top court of the United Nations ruled on Friday that it would take up the question of whether Ukraine committed genocide in its Donetsk and Luhansk regions, an accusation at the heart of Russia’s argument for its 2022 full-scale invasion.

The ruling came in a case brought by Ukraine to the International Court of Justice. The court said that Ukraine’s claim that there was no credible evidence that Kyiv was “responsible for committing genocide” in its Donetsk and Luhansk regions was admissible and that it would examine that claim on its merits.

The case, which will likely take many months to complete, will give a legal answer to one of the central allegations made by Russia against Ukraine — that Kyiv has been committing genocide against Russian speakers in the country’s east.
…

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/02/worl ... ussia.html

[DeletedUser]

Welp, that settles it. We should have let Russia invade Ukraine and/or wipe them off the map with bombs.


Thanks for enlightening us Ousdahl!

Your work here is done. We'll clean up and turn the lights off on our way out.

[Shirley]

Welp, that settles it. We should have let Russia invade Ukraine and/or wipe them off the map with bombs.


Thanks for enlightening us Ousdahl!

Your work here is done. We'll clean up and turn the lights off on our way out.

The only question left to answer is whether or not to give Poland to Putin as reparations for ever doubting his good intentions to reunite the Russian state of Ukraine with its motherland.

[TDub]

Welp, that settles it. We should have let Russia invade Ukraine and/or wipe them off the map with bombs.


Thanks for enlightening us Ousdahl!

Your work here is done. We'll clean up and turn the lights off on our way out.

The only question left to answer is whether or not to give Poland to Putin as reparations for ever doubting his good intentions to reunite the Russian state of Ukraine with its motherland.

why stop there?

any other stance is a window of opportunity for the Nato bullies if you fall for it.

[Overlander]

Welp, that settles it. We should have let Russia invade Ukraine and/or wipe them off the map with bombs.


Thanks for enlightening us Ousdahl!

Your work here is done. We'll clean up and turn the lights off on our way out.

Fuck it, let them rape their way across Europe!

[ousdahl]

you guys are broken.

[DeletedUser]

you guys are broken.

Is it us or is it you?

Just something to think about.

[KUTradition]

if everyone else in the room is an asshole…

[DeletedUser]

if everyone else in the room is an asshole…

And I've been that guy plenty of times.

[jfish26]

Welp.

In this week’s episode of, “Sorry you guys I know you hate me for doing this but SERIOUSLY HOW AM I THE ONLY ONE CONCERNED ABOUT US GIVING WEAPONS TO RIGHT-WING NATIONALISTS WHO END UP ON TRIAL AT THE HAGUE FOR GENOCIDE?!?!”

The top court of the United Nations ruled on Friday that it would take up the question of whether Ukraine committed genocide in its Donetsk and Luhansk regions, an accusation at the heart of Russia’s argument for its 2022 full-scale invasion.

The ruling came in a case brought by Ukraine to the International Court of Justice. The court said that Ukraine’s claim that there was no credible evidence that Kyiv was “responsible for committing genocide” in its Donetsk and Luhansk regions was admissible and that it would examine that claim on its merits.

The case, which will likely take many months to complete, will give a legal answer to one of the central allegations made by Russia against Ukraine — that Kyiv has been committing genocide against Russian speakers in the country’s east.
…

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/02/worl ... ussia.html

No one hates you.

But this is a great example of what you are doing, over and over, that people hate.

It is clear from just the portion of the article you quoted that what is happening here is that Ukraine ASKED the UN court to consider whether Putin’s justification for his war on Ukraine has any basis in fact.

You will be familiar with Putin’s pretext here, because it is right there in his war-opening speech that you have cribbed from. But here is some additional information in the article you posted:

In his February 2022 speech that announced the invasion of Ukraine, President Vladimir V. Putin said that the purpose of the “special military operation,” as Russia has called the war, was to “protect people who, for eight years now, have been facing humiliation and genocide perpetrated by the Kyiv regime.”

Ukraine denounced Russia’s genocide allegations at the time, calling them “manipulative.” Shortly after the invasion Ukraine’s foreign affairs ministry said they served as an excuse for Russia’s “unlawful aggression.”

Two days after the Russian attack, Ukraine brought its case to the court, which is based in The Hague, in the Netherlands, arguing that the genocide allegation was false and therefore Russia’s use of force against it was a violation of the Genocide Convention.

[…]

[Should] the court rule in Ukraine’s favor, that would dismiss Russia’s claim that Kyiv had committed genocide against Russian speakers in the country’s east, which has been at the heart of Moscow’s argument for invasion and overall hostility toward the Ukrainian government.

In other words, you are SO freaking eager to adopt Putin’s talking points that you see (and bring us!), as evidence of Ukraine’s apparent arson, a proceeding brought by Ukraine to establish that Russia manufactured smoke.

[TDub]

Welp.

In this week’s episode of, “Sorry you guys I know you hate me for doing this but SERIOUSLY HOW AM I THE ONLY ONE CONCERNED ABOUT US GIVING WEAPONS TO RIGHT-WING NATIONALISTS WHO END UP ON TRIAL AT THE HAGUE FOR GENOCIDE?!?!”

The top court of the United Nations ruled on Friday that it would take up the question of whether Ukraine committed genocide in its Donetsk and Luhansk regions, an accusation at the heart of Russia’s argument for its 2022 full-scale invasion.

The ruling came in a case brought by Ukraine to the International Court of Justice. The court said that Ukraine’s claim that there was no credible evidence that Kyiv was “responsible for committing genocide” in its Donetsk and Luhansk regions was admissible and that it would examine that claim on its merits.

The case, which will likely take many months to complete, will give a legal answer to one of the central allegations made by Russia against Ukraine — that Kyiv has been committing genocide against Russian speakers in the country’s east.
…

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/02/worl ... ussia.html

No one hates you

But this is a great example of what you are doing, over and over, that people hate.

It is clear from just the portion of the article you quoted that what is happening here is that Ukraine ASKED the UN court to consider whether Putin’s justification for his war on Ukraine has any basis in fact.

You will be familiar with Putin’s pretext here, because it is right there in his war-opening speech that you have cribbed from. But here is some additional information in the article you posted:

In his February 2022 speech that announced the invasion of Ukraine, President Vladimir V. Putin said that the purpose of the “special military operation,” as Russia has called the war, was to “protect people who, for eight years now, have been facing humiliation and genocide perpetrated by the Kyiv regime.”

Ukraine denounced Russia’s genocide allegations at the time, calling them “manipulative.” Shortly after the invasion Ukraine’s foreign affairs ministry said they served as an excuse for Russia’s “unlawful aggression.”

Two days after the Russian attack, Ukraine brought its case to the court, which is based in The Hague, in the Netherlands, arguing that the genocide allegation was false and therefore Russia’s use of force against it was a violation of the Genocide Convention.

[…]

[Should] the court rule in Ukraine’s favor, that would dismiss Russia’s claim that Kyiv had committed genocide against Russian speakers in the country’s east, which has been at the heart of Moscow’s argument for invasion and overall hostility toward the Ukrainian government.

In other words, you are SO freaking eager to adopt Putin’s talking points that you see (and bring us!), as evidence of Ukraine’s apparent arson, a proceeding brought by Ukraine to establish that Russia manufactured smoke.

I mean, let's let this play out, let's not be so quick to put a final answer down.

[Sparko]

Ukraine is older than Russia and pre-Czar. So no. Indeed the other way around. Stalin's starvation of Ukraine is a good example of the past century