B12 2024

[RainbowsandUnicorns]

He was great in the r32 and s16 game.
He didn't show up for the e8 or FF game.
Then had some key moments in the championship.

He was generally dogshit for the rest of the season.

There are so many other players who were far better at basketball under Bill Self that could create their own shot you could have used as a comparison.

I know when you take a moment to stop hating (or at least minimizing his importance to the team) on the guy, you realize without Martin there very well might not have been wins against Providence and Creighton and thus, KU has one less trophy and one less banner.

"Didn't show up for the E8"? I'm a bit confused with that statement. I was there and I swear I thought I saw him show up.
I thought I watched him play 24 minutes. I thought I watched him shoot 4 of 9 FG, 3-7 3pt, grab 6 rebounds, and dish out 2 assists. I thought I watched him played solid defense. I know my friend Paul that I invited didn't show up to the game. I thought Remy did. Maybe I didn't see him show up and I am confusing Remy with someone else?

For fucks sake, the guy was the Midwest Region most outstanding player. Coming off the bench.
Kudos.

"Generally dogshit for the rest of the season"? I wouldn't necessarily say he was "generally dogshit for the rest of the season" but I would agree he didn't contribute much for a considerable portion of it. Part of that being injured/hurt after the Nevada game and part of that being he and Self trying to figure out how to get him back in the the swing of things.

How about the 14 games (almost half of the 30 he played in) when he was healthy and he scored 10 or more points?
He was hardly "dogshit" against Creighton, Providence, UNC, Texas Southern. Hardly "dogshit" against Texas Tech and TCU in the Big 12 Tourney. Hardly "dogshit" against Michigan State, North Texas, Dayton, and St. Johns early in the season. Right? Or am I wrong about that?

Martin was a one-year transfer rental guy and PDub doesn't like them. He isn't going to apply the same evaluation logic to those players as he applies to guys who spend their entire careers at Kansas. Just accept that as the starting point to any comments involving those players.

Yep.
I wonder how pdub feels about Lawson. I think he was only a Junior so maybe he doesn't get judged as harshly?

[RainbowsandUnicorns]

Remy Martin:

.359 Crimscore.
8.6 PPG, 3 RPG, 2.5 APG, .1 BPG, .6 SPG, 1.3 TO/PG, 46.2% FG, 38.2% 3FG, 75.4% FT, 21.2 MPG.

Compare that to the average Self player.

.319 Crimscore
7.2 PPG, 3.3 RPG, 1.5 APG, .7 SPG, .4 BPG, .4 TO/PG, 48.1% FG, 37.2% 3FG, 70.2% FT, 18.8 MPG.

It's better...but those numbers include walk-ons and deep deep bench guys.

Now, just for kicks ( pun intended ), compare that to player B:
14.1 PPG, 4 RPG, 1.9 APG, 47.6% FG, 1.2 SPG, .2 BPG, 45.5% 3FG, 76.7% FT.

I think Remy was a slightly above average player under Self who came alive in the post season for us.
It needs to be clear that he was not the most important player in that tournament for us as it seems like the legend around some circles portray it as.
I'd argue he was the 5th most important player for us in that tournament.

Sure, we likely don't win the title without him.
But we DEFINITELY don't win the title without any of these four guys:
DMac, Ochai, Braun or Wilson.

I think he was a great 6th man.
I don't think he's a guy you use when comparing how you'd like McCullar to improve.

Your last 2 sentences, I don't think anyone should disagree with.

[pdub]

I did not like Lawson.
He put less effort on the court than Hunter does.

That said, I think he certainly is a far better player for us than the standard Jayhawk fan remembers - objectively he was pretty studly.

[pdub]

Right.
Here's the comment that sparked this debate:

"Yeah, he can ( Kevin McCullar on getting his own shot ). But yeah, just not elite.
I dunno if he’s the kinda guy who can just go makes some buckets happen when nothing else is working, a la Remy against Creighton"

Sorry, but McCullar is better at making buckets happen than Remy.
Remy never did it consistently.
Remy for sure wasn't elite at it.

[MICHHAWK]

i don't know what a crimscore is. and i don't really care.

MICHHAWKscore is:

IF I REMEMBER YOU FONDLY = you score high

IF I ONLY REMEMBER YOU WHEN SOME MALCONTENT DRAGS YOU BACK UP = you score low

[pdub]

The average Bill Self player has these stats:

.319 Crimscore
7.2 PPG, 3.3 RPG, 1.5 APG, .7 SPG, .4 BPG, .4 TO/PG, 48.1% FG, 37.2% 3FG, 70.2% FT, 18.8 MPG.

So was Russ Rob a below average, average, or above average player for KU?

Oh boy, Russ Rob is the poster child for wildly overrated amongst KU fans.
I've always said this.

I'd say, because he was such a good defender, and because his stats were better than average, above average.

Career:
.370 Crimscore ( higher than the average Self player ).
7.1 PPG, 3.7 APG, 2.6 RPG, 1.8 SPG, 40.7% FG ( WOOF ), 32.4% 3FG ( WOOF ), 72.3% FT.

But his last 3 years when he became a starter:
.416 Crimscore.
7.9 PPG, 4.3 APG, 3 RPG, 2.1 SPG ( nice ), 40.7% FG ( eek ), 32.7% FG ( yowza ), 72.5% FT.

That's an above average player for sure.
But below average to average starter.
He's not a top 25 player under Bill Self for me.

[pdub]

i don't know what a crimscore is. and i don't really care.

MICHHAWKscore is:

IF I REMEMBER YOU FONDLY = you score high

IF I ONLY REMEMBER YOU WHEN SOME MALCONTENT DRAGS YOU BACK UP = you score low

Yes, we know numbers and statistics confuse, bother and frighten you.

[KUTradition]

looks like day two of senile mich is in effect

[pdub]

Top 25 Self players - not exactly ordered but generally ( yes, players who played under Self for two years but who were recruited by roi certainly count ):

Frank
Simien
Collins
Ochai
TRob
Vonte
Udoka
Chalmers
Rush
Marcus
Jalen
Langford
Aldrich
Withey
Dotson
McCullar
Perry Ellis
Tyshawn
Darrell Arthur
Aaron Miles
Kief
Braun
Dmac
DJax
Selden

Others considered who certainly were better players but because they were only here one year, not valid when comparing to Russ Rob ( who contributed more than these dudes ):
Wiggins, Josh Jackson, Embiid, McLemore, Malik Newman, Gradey Dick, Xavier Henry, Dedric Lawson, Hunter.

Others debatable due to their best seasons being better than Russ Robs best:
Svi, Julian Wright, Travis Releford, Marcus Garrett.

Other debated just because his averages and peaks were better than Russ Rob's and because it'll make people angry:
Lagerald Vick

Other debated because I think he's just a better player and his best season is just as good as Russ Rob's:
Dajuan Harris

So yea, Russ Rob probably clocks in just above 30 for me...so above average player for sure as Self has had over 130 players play under him at Kansas.

[MICHHAWK]

i don't know who i am taking off to make room. but there has to be room for MG on that list. WS maybe. or probably KM.

[pdub]

Wayne Simien?

[MICHHAWK]

oh god no. selden.

[pdub]

If McCullar finishes the season strong, he could be a 1st team AA.
That would lock him up on that list for me.

[AlOerter]

The average Bill Self player has these stats:

.319 Crimscore
7.2 PPG, 3.3 RPG, 1.5 APG, .7 SPG, .4 BPG, .4 TO/PG, 48.1% FG, 37.2% 3FG, 70.2% FT, 18.8 MPG.

So was Russ Rob a below average, average, or above average player for KU?

Oh boy, Russ Rob is the poster child for wildly overrated amongst KU fans.
I've always said this.

I'd say, because he was such a good defender, and because his stats were better than average, above average.

Career:
.370 Crimscore ( higher than the average Self player ).
7.1 PPG, 3.7 APG, 2.6 RPG, 1.8 SPG, 40.7% FG ( WOOF ), 32.4% 3FG ( WOOF ), 72.3% FT.

But his last 3 years when he became a starter:
.416 Crimscore.
7.9 PPG, 4.3 APG, 3 RPG, 2.1 SPG ( nice ), 40.7% FG ( eek ), 32.7% FG ( yowza ), 72.5% FT.

That's an above average player for sure.
But below average to average starter.
He's not a top 25 player under Bill Self for me.

The thing about Russ Rob was he was a near perfect fit for the guys he played with. Wish he was a little better shooter for sure but he had great chemistry on that team.

[pdub]

It's a similar argument to Dajuan except Dajuan is a better floor leader than Russ.

[ousdahl]

if Dajuan was a near perfect fit for the guys he played with then either he and/or KJ would be good shooters

Now someone guttermeter me up

[pdub]

KJ is shooting 61% from the field.

[TDub]

I did not like Lawson.
He put less effort on the court than Hunter does.

That said, I think he certainly is a far better player for us than the standard Jayhawk fan remembers - objectively he was pretty studly.

Lawson was not fun to watch. One of the least fun Kansas teams I've watched play.

When Vick got hot tho, boy....microwave status. Still general point remains.

[ousdahl]

KJ is shooting 61% from the field.

That’s good.

I should have clarified 3 point shooting.

Dajuan shoots 3s at a good percentage but not often. KJ has hardly shot 3s at all and has never even made one.

I still think they’re both solid enough pieces that Self can fuck shit up with them.

But this lineup would be another level if they both did feature solid Js as part of their game

[KUTradition]

KM still questionable vs tejas