Goodbye Hunter Dickinson

[jfish26]

the guy is overrated based on empty stats. I dont like him, I'm not gonna like him. I dont think he helps a team win. My point going to high school is that it seems whatever team he is there are 2 constants, his stat line is always good, his team doesn't win.....I dont think those things are coincidences.

Ok. But your opinion would, I guess, be different had we won 33 games this year?

Which would have required better players around him, yes?

Or would you be saying, based on his Michigan and high school (???) team success, that clearly what happened is the better players finally dragged him along into winning?

we've done this.

why do we keep doing this what if dance when we have actual results to discuss?

For me personally, my opinion of him wouldn't change. I would be happier with our season results, however, and would have to admit that the roster construction did, indeed, work.

Well, we do have actual results to discuss. Like getting blown the eff out by a non-tourney team, two weeks ago tomorrow. And, as trad points out, Michigan nosediving.

Just like I think the majority of fan anxiety over the changes is really more about the portal (than about money), I think the majority of fan anxiety over Hunter is really more about the changes than Hunter's actual contributions.

[Back2Lawrence]

I was not a fan of the Lawson fam.

This.

I would like to see KJ be a Rodman type, using his athleticism to GET BOARDS!

He could take some of the defensive load off of HD if he developed this mindset as well.
IMO

This is how I was about the Morris Twins.

[Back2Lawrence]

Ok. But your opinion would, I guess, be different had we won 33 games this year?

Which would have required better players around him, yes?

Or would you be saying, based on his Michigan and high school (???) team success, that clearly what happened is the better players finally dragged him along into winning?

, I think the majority of fan anxiety over Hunter is really more about the changes than Hunter's actual contributions.
[/quote]

Fair enough, but no matter which side of the coin you look at in that argument, the team still lost double digit games for only the third time under Self. Just as we get excited every 7 (or so on average, usually) years when football is kinda relevant, we should get peacocked whent he basketball team falls below expectations (especially expectations within a season....our national ranking never really dropped too much based, IMO, mostly on reputation).

And yes, to reiterate, I'm just not a fan of HD as a player. I don't care how many points and rebounds he has. His game doesn't seem to be complimentary to a group. Maybe if he was on The Ocho playing horse, he'd be an absolute man child!

[TDub]

Ok. But your opinion would, I guess, be different had we won 33 games this year?

Which would have required better players around him, yes?

Or would you be saying, based on his Michigan and high school (???) team success, that clearly what happened is the better players finally dragged him along into winning?

we've done this.

why do we keep doing this what if dance when we have actual results to discuss?

For me personally, my opinion of him wouldn't change. I would be happier with our season results, however, and would have to admit that the roster construction did, indeed, work.

Well, we do have actual results to discuss. Like getting blown the eff out by a non-tourney team, two weeks ago tomorrow. And, as trad points out, Michigan nosediving.

Just like I think the majority of fan anxiety over the changes is really more about the portal (than about money), I think the majority of fan anxiety over Hunter is really more about the changes than Hunter's actual contributions.

Yes, but you keep going back to this team, with this team construction. Yes, this team was better with hunter playing, I'm not arguing that. This team didn't do shit with him playing or not playing. The point being if you dont have Hunter and his huge salary then you have other players who may put up lesser numbers but impact the game more positively.

We don't just roll out this exact team sans Hunter and call it good.

Saying that Hunter isn't a winning player and that I don't think he makes the team (in a general usage of the term) better AND also saying this particular team (a fairly terrible Bill Self team and Kansas team based on the last 40 years) was better with him playing....are not necessarily statements that are incogruent.

[jfish26]

we've done this.

why do we keep doing this what if dance when we have actual results to discuss?

For me personally, my opinion of him wouldn't change. I would be happier with our season results, however, and would have to admit that the roster construction did, indeed, work.

Well, we do have actual results to discuss. Like getting blown the eff out by a non-tourney team, two weeks ago tomorrow. And, as trad points out, Michigan nosediving.

Just like I think the majority of fan anxiety over the changes is really more about the portal (than about money), I think the majority of fan anxiety over Hunter is really more about the changes than Hunter's actual contributions.

Yes, but you keep going back to this team, with this team construction. Yes, this team was better with hunter playing, I'm not arguing that. This team didn't do shit with him playing or not playing. The point being if you dont have Hunter and his huge salary then you have other players who may put up lesser numbers but impact the game more positively.

We don't just roll out this exact team sans Hunter and call it good.

Saying that Hunter isn't a winning player and that I don't think he makes the team (in a general usage of the term) better AND also saying this particular team (a fairly terrible Bill Self team and Kansas team based on the last 40 years) was better with him playing....are not necessarily statements that are incogruent.

But "and his huge salary" gives away the game here. It's baggage of Hunter's that makes you hate Hunter. That baggage is not really relevant to roster construction, and it is not relevant at all to his play or our results (except in how we feel about them).

The primary issue with this team is not that we had Hunter. The primary issue is not that Hunter is not a "winner". We probably would have been a bubble team without him, even if you assume we'd have kept Udeh AND Zuby.

The primary issue is that we didn't have more around Hunter (specifically, at a minimum, at least one more shooter so as to improve the value of Hunter's passing skills, and at least one more big who could play alongside Hunter (and rebound better than KJ) or in place of Hunter (and offer more than Braun)).

If you want to make a case that Hunter's NIL money somehow made those things impossible...I think that would be an implausible, highly-speculative case. Particularly considering the timing involved.

[AlOerter]

Have to admit I was underwhelmed when we signed Braun as a backup big. He basically lived up to his history as a player. He was a great teammate and good kid but the drop off was significant when he was in. We also didn't have an adequate back up at any other position. Furphy was the one bright spot of the freshman class and he is still clearly learning how to play at this level. There is potential with Elmarko and Jamari but they clearly weren't ready for prime time. We didn't even have a back up at the 4 for KJ.

Having said all that I think there is no bigger competitor than Bill Self and this will stick in his craw more than it does ours. Look for a relentless off-season for the coaching staff to rebuild this roster.

[pdub]

"We probably would have been a bubble team without him, even if you assume we'd have kept Udeh AND Zuby."

I disagree strongly.
Bubble team means something like a 11 seed?
Nah.

[pdub]

"That baggage is not really relevant to roster construction, and it is not relevant at all to his play or our results"

This is also speculation.
Do we know for sure that there isn't chemistry issues because one player now feels unfairly compensated?
Do we know because of his salary that we feel entitled to involve him in the game plan more than we should?
Do we know because of his salary he feels entitled to preferred treatment on/off the court?

While I agree on a whole it isn't outwardly relevant there are many possibilities where it could be intangibly so.

[jfish26]

"We probably would have been a bubble team without him, even if you assume we'd have kept Udeh AND Zuby."

I disagree strongly.
Bubble team means something like a 11 seed?
Nah.

He scored nearly 1/4 of our points. If you assume everything would have gone exactly as it did (simply replacing his spot with Udeh and Zuby), I think we would have been pretty damn bubblicious.

[DeletedUser]

"We probably would have been a bubble team without him, even if you assume we'd have kept Udeh AND Zuby."

I disagree strongly.
Bubble team means something like a 11 seed?
Nah.

He scored nearly 1/4 of our points. If you assume everything would have gone exactly as it did (simply replacing his spot with Udeh and Zuby), I think we would have been pretty damn bubblicious.

We'd have been better at defense and rebounding, but significantly worse at offense. And the inability to pass the ball inside to a big would have snowballed into even bigger issues.


Now,

I think if we trade HD Elmarko McDowell Braun and Timberlake for our entire old cast of Yesufu Pettiford Rice Udeh and Zuby + no redshirt for Clemence that our season would have probably been about the same as this season.

But if it's just HD for Udeh + Zuby then I agree we would have been really bad. And with the hard schedule we had a bubble team was absolutely within the range of potential outcomes.

[pdub]

And I disagree strongly.
I think Udeh would have been at least twice as good as his stats showed at TCU, a wasteland for bigs.
And the combination of both of them would have given us a top 3 defense in the nation.

Think 80th in AdjO and 3rd in AdjD.
IF Kevin gets hurt the same? Sure, what Illy said earlier might make a bit of sense...I'd still think Self would get us to a 7.

If Kevin is healthy? We're a 6 at the very worst.

Assuming we'd be a bubble team simply gives no credibility to Self and his history as a coach and his working with the talent he has to get top seeds.

[DeletedUser]

I think that's a pretty optimistic outlook (the 80AdjO and 3AdjD).

Udeh and Zuby aren't guys you throw the ball to downlow and let them work.

I think the cumulative impact of no post scoring presence would have exacerbated our shooting/spacing problems. Now we're playing 3+ non shooters at all times.

HD is a very good passer. 2+ ast per game. Good at passing out of the double.

We'd have been scoring in the 60s a lot.

[DeletedUser]

Which team is better?

Team A: this year's team

Team B: DH, Pettiford, Yesufu, Rice, Furphy, KM, Udeh, Zuby, Kj, and Clemence?

I think it's pretty close. I'd have preferred rolling with group B.

Self fucked that up.

[jfish26]

And I disagree strongly.
I think Udeh would have been at least twice as good as his stats showed at TCU, a wasteland for bigs.
And the combination of both of them would have given us a top 3 defense in the nation.

Think 80th in AdjO and 3rd in AdjD.
IF Kevin gets hurt the same? Sure, what Illy said earlier might make a bit of sense...I'd still think Self would get us to a 7.

If Kevin is healthy? We're a 6 at the very worst.

Assuming we'd be a bubble team simply gives no credibility to Self and his history as a coach and his working with the talent he has to get top seeds.

We just got the worst seed Bill's had here, WITH (among the other talent he had) a Second Team AA center.

At present, we're 61st in AdjO and 17th in AdjD.

I do not think it's reasonable to suggest that replacing Hunter's minutes with Udeh/Zuby would plausibly result in moving up to 3rd in AdjD. That would be better than ANY team we've had except '08 (1), '20 (2), and '12 and '15 (3). You really think this would have been a top-quarter Bill defensive team? I do not. Not with on-ball sieves at so many other spots.

I think it is comedy to suggest that we only would have dropped to 80th in AdjO.

[MICHHAWK]

HCBS was our biggest problem this season. not hd. not km. HCBS. he stunk.

[pdub]

"I do not think it's reasonable to suggest that replacing Hunter's minutes with Udeh/Zuby would plausibly result in moving up to 3rd in AdjD"

Then we disagree.
We were 17th this season.

We had a senior who was B12DPOY. We had another senior who was B12DPOY. We had a 4 who is very talented on defense. Throw in a guy who I think would be Udoka Lite ( as opposed to pretty rough on defense Diamond boi ) and give him a legit backup and yes, I think we could very well be 3rd.

Iowa State was 1st.
Iowa State isn't beyond more talented than our squad would be with the scenario I presented.

As far as your comedy comment about dropping 19 spots in adjO, I can't help you if you don't think our coach has shown the ability to get the best out of his players in his long tenured career ( where he has done so ).

[DeletedUser]

HCBS was our biggest problem this season. not hd. not km. HCBS. he stunk.

Reasonable.

And he would probably agree. He's competitive. He will do better.

[KUTradition]

Have to admit I was underwhelmed when we signed Braun as a backup big. He basically lived up to his history as a player. He was a great teammate and good kid but the drop off was significant when he was in. We also didn't have an adequate back up at any other position. Furphy was the one bright spot of the freshman class and he is still clearly learning how to play at this level. There is potential with Elmarko and Jamari but they clearly weren't ready for prime time. We didn't even have a back up at the 4 for KJ.

Having said all that I think there is no bigger competitor than Bill Self and this will stick in his craw more than it does ours. Look for a relentless off-season for the coaching staff to rebuild this roster.

i don’t think Self at all expected that bringing in Dickinson would have chased BOTH udeh and zuby to tuck tail. i’m assuming the timing meant that Braun was really all that was left since Zach/Self were determined about the redshirt


i think it’s hilarious how certain some posters are that udeh and/or zuby would have been head and shoulders better had they not transferred…i just don’t see it, and think their dislike of HD is jading that opinion

i think our defensive action would have been better, but i saw nothing from either of them to suggest they would magically develop serious offensive skills

a team with either/both of them in the place of HD, imo (and all else equal), would’ve struggled to score more so than it actually did…which is exactly why Self went out and got HD in the first place. he, apparently, didn’t see the supposed potential in udeh/zuby that some here seem to swear by

[KUTradition]

"I do not think it's reasonable to suggest that replacing Hunter's minutes with Udeh/Zuby would plausibly result in moving up to 3rd in AdjD"

Then we disagree.
We were 17th this season.

We had a senior who was B12DPOY. We had another senior who was B12DPOY. We had a 4 who is very talented on defense. Throw in a guy who I think would be Udoka Lite ( as opposed to pretty rough on defense Diamond boi ) and give him a legit backup and yes, I think we could very well be 3rd.

Iowa State was 1st.
Iowa State isn't beyond more talented than our squad would be with the scenario I presented.

As far as your comedy comment about dropping 19 spots in adjO, I can't help you if you don't think our coach has shown the ability to get the best out of his players in his long tenured career ( where he has done so ).

so then why did Self go out and get HD in the first place?

unless, he figured udeh’s and zuby’s best still wasn’t good enough…

[pdub]

I'm saying we would be worse with Udeh and Zuby and not Hunter - just not a freaking bubble team.
That's probably why Self went out to get HD - to go for it this season.
I think it might have cost us in the long run.

We'll never know how good we would have been.
I think Self's track record shows he's going to find a system that gives his team the best chance to win and that he can surprise people with guys they had no idea could be featured on the team.
You all don't.