Let’s have a war!

[jfish26]

Ousdahl is the very model of a modern major sophist, and no longer merits an answer. This is what you get when you pay for an argument and walk into the abuse office.

I don't know whether it merits an answer, or doesn't.

I do find the dynamic really interesting, though, which is why I keep responding.

We are seeing, in real-time, how exactly mis- and disinformation works - it is not strapped-to-a-chair brainwashing that causes a switch to flip, it's these little things that happen around the margins and result, taken as a whole, in someone having (and believing in!) a position they never, ever would have just chosen to take, in a Point-A-to-Point-B way.

[ousdahl]

Agreed - I too find this dynamic interesting, which is why I keep responding.

To the rest of your post, I’d like to distinguish - between you and me, I’m afraid I may be the only one who has considered mis- and dis-information can happen in both directions.

There is no good guy bad guy sides to take here. All this should be taken with big grains of salt.

[ousdahl]

I still think there has to be some other something between, “but anything BESIDES our strategy of piecemeal support for Ukraine with no end in sight is bona fide Putin propoganda!!!,” and, some cognizant realization that the piecemeal support for Ukraine has and is yielding Putin more and more territorial gains in Ukraine - which is to say, maybe the strategy is not working as intended.

If only there were some other something.

And ideally some other something that more closely resembles some just deescalation, rather than perpetuation and escalation.

You keep cycling back through the same broken reasoning.

Our "strategy of piecemeal support" - which, to be perfectly clear, is a strategy of restraint and remove - made sense, and was working just fine.

But then, people who think the same way you think (but for different reasons) turned off the spigot nearly altogether, such that what is meant by "piecemeal" became something much different than what the strategy actually is/was.

And those same people - you now included - are playing gotcha games by blaming the crippled strategy for being ineffective.

This is what the right wing of our politics does: they break things, and then blame things for being broken.

And these are your kinfolk at least on this issue; they got there because Trump (who is beholden to Putin) told them to, you got there because Putin's shit is working its magic on your sincerely-held anti-war positions.

The result is obvious even if you do not want it to be: here you are again, saying in thinly-veiled code that Ukraine bears some responsibility for deescalating a war of aggression that it did not seek.

This is one of your better posts here in a while.

It’s actually starting to consider some bigger picture here.

And, as such, be careful bro. This is the same slippery slope Qusdahl went down.

If you’re willing to consider whether piecemeal support works or has previously worked, you might next wonder when piecemeal support ever began, and whether piecemeal support is correlated with any other happenings yet.

And down the rabbit hole Alice falls…

But for real, your silence on Israel is only getting more deafening.

And in some bigger picture, it’s likely some indication of just how selective you’re being with your views on Ukraine too.

[jfish26]

Agreed - I too find this dynamic interesting, which is why I keep responding.

To the rest of your post, I’d like to distinguish - between you and me, I’m afraid I may be the only one who has considered mis- and dis-information can happen in both directions.

There is no good guy bad guy sides to take here. All this should be taken with big grains of salt.

I think you are wrong to continue to bring WAY TOO MUCH other shit into what is a very simple question: what percentage of blame does Russia bear for the current war between Russia and Ukraine?

While the answer is not 100.00%, it is close enough to it that the difference is immaterial.

In other words: YES. There is a bad guy here, and it is Russia.

[KUTradition]

and 211 pages later…

[jfish26]

I still think there has to be some other something between, “but anything BESIDES our strategy of piecemeal support for Ukraine with no end in sight is bona fide Putin propoganda!!!,” and, some cognizant realization that the piecemeal support for Ukraine has and is yielding Putin more and more territorial gains in Ukraine - which is to say, maybe the strategy is not working as intended.

If only there were some other something.

And ideally some other something that more closely resembles some just deescalation, rather than perpetuation and escalation.

You keep cycling back through the same broken reasoning.

Our "strategy of piecemeal support" - which, to be perfectly clear, is a strategy of restraint and remove - made sense, and was working just fine.

But then, people who think the same way you think (but for different reasons) turned off the spigot nearly altogether, such that what is meant by "piecemeal" became something much different than what the strategy actually is/was.

And those same people - you now included - are playing gotcha games by blaming the crippled strategy for being ineffective.

This is what the right wing of our politics does: they break things, and then blame things for being broken.

And these are your kinfolk at least on this issue; they got there because Trump (who is beholden to Putin) told them to, you got there because Putin's shit is working its magic on your sincerely-held anti-war positions.

The result is obvious even if you do not want it to be: here you are again, saying in thinly-veiled code that Ukraine bears some responsibility for deescalating a war of aggression that it did not seek.

This is one of your better posts here in a while.

It’s actually starting to consider some bigger picture here.

And, as such, be careful bro. This is the same slippery slope Qusdahl went down.

If you’re willing to consider whether piecemeal support works or has previously worked, you might next wonder when piecemeal support ever began, and whether piecemeal support is correlated with any other happenings yet.

And down the rabbit hole Alice falls…

But for real, your silence on Israel is only getting more deafening.

And in some bigger picture, it’s likely some indication of just how selective you’re being with your views on Ukraine too.

My selectivity is precisely because I know that rabbit hole is a trap.

The whole design of the mis- and disinformation apparatus you are falling victim to is to overwhelm you with pluses and minuses and ifs and buts and whens and hows and whatabouts. To convince you that all things are maximally complicated and interconnected to a degree that it's impossible to consider anything for what it simply is.

Russia's war on Ukraine simply IS unjustified, and so YES, Russia (Putin) simply is the bad guy.

And that lack of justification has fuck-all to do with Iraq or Afghanistan or Vietnam or Israel or Hamas or Iran or Halliburton or Raytheon or even Trump or Biden or any other character in the fever dream that Putin and the Putin-aligned have seeded in people's heads.

[ousdahl]

Not 100.0%

That’s exactly what Putin would say.

But fish, for real, at some point you gotta realize just how biased you are…and just how conditioned by the “WMDs in Iraq” style rhetoric you are.

I mean shit, to literally just go ahead and double down on “bad guy” language, not only without any irony, but with a dogmatic conviction, while also dismissing anything but as bad guy propaganda, and burying your head in sand about everything else…I mean shit! You’re a walking case study in imperial propaganda conditioning.

[ousdahl]

You keep cycling back through the same broken reasoning.

Our "strategy of piecemeal support" - which, to be perfectly clear, is a strategy of restraint and remove - made sense, and was working just fine.

But then, people who think the same way you think (but for different reasons) turned off the spigot nearly altogether, such that what is meant by "piecemeal" became something much different than what the strategy actually is/was.

And those same people - you now included - are playing gotcha games by blaming the crippled strategy for being ineffective.

This is what the right wing of our politics does: they break things, and then blame things for being broken.

And these are your kinfolk at least on this issue; they got there because Trump (who is beholden to Putin) told them to, you got there because Putin's shit is working its magic on your sincerely-held anti-war positions.

The result is obvious even if you do not want it to be: here you are again, saying in thinly-veiled code that Ukraine bears some responsibility for deescalating a war of aggression that it did not seek.

This is one of your better posts here in a while.

It’s actually starting to consider some bigger picture here.

And, as such, be careful bro. This is the same slippery slope Qusdahl went down.

If you’re willing to consider whether piecemeal support works or has previously worked, you might next wonder when piecemeal support ever began, and whether piecemeal support is correlated with any other happenings yet.

And down the rabbit hole Alice falls…

But for real, your silence on Israel is only getting more deafening.

And in some bigger picture, it’s likely some indication of just how selective you’re being with your views on Ukraine too.

My selectivity is precisely because I know that rabbit hole is a trap.

The whole design of the mis- and disinformation apparatus you are falling victim to is to overwhelm you with pluses and minuses and ifs and buts and whens and hows and whatabouts. To convince you that all things are maximally complicated and interconnected to a degree that it's impossible to consider anything for what it simply is.

Russia's war on Ukraine simply IS unjustified, and so YES, Russia (Putin) simply is the bad guy.

And that lack of justification has fuck-all to do with Iraq or Afghanistan or Vietnam or Israel or Hamas or Iran or Halliburton or Raytheon or even Trump or Biden or any other character in the fever dream that Putin and the Putin-aligned have seeded in people's heads.

Ho-lee shit.

Yea, like I just said…

[ousdahl]

Fish- If you’d prefer I take a page out of your book, and double down on some link from months ago, and if you’d like to demonstrate how your own view here is something BESIDES incredibly selective…would you care to take a chance to finally comment on DC’s dank meme?

[ousdahl]

And if we may discuss a link I almost posted when it was originally published, but believe it or not I did NOT post it at the time, just cuz I honestly didn’t want to be too annoying, and cuz these discussions are futile cuz you only select what you wanna see and hear here…

Would you, fish, like to comment on who the real “winners of the war” in Ukraine may be here?

https://amp.theguardian.com/business/20 ... of-ukraine

[ousdahl]

(Oh, and considering the death of like 5 or 6 aid workers may very well end up being not only the moment Dems finally act a little less hawkish for the first time in years, but also thee big turning point in the U.S.’s relationship of military aid to our longtime middle eastern allies, I’d still be very curious to hear your thoughts there too, fish…assuming all that isn’t just more Putin propaganda, right?)

[Sparko]

So the war Putin and his Iranian allies started in the middle east with Trump's friend Bibi surprises you with its injustice? Really?

[jfish26]

Not 100.0%

That’s exactly what Putin would say.

But fish, for real, at some point you gotta realize just how biased you are…and just how conditioned by the “WMDs in Iraq” style rhetoric you are.

I mean shit, to literally just go ahead and double down on “bad guy” language, not only without any irony, but with a dogmatic conviction, while also dismissing anything but as bad guy propaganda, and burying your head in sand about everything else…I mean shit! You’re a walking case study in imperial propaganda conditioning.

I am responding, too, to your posts below this quoted one.

You are, still, bouncing from boogeyman to boogeyman like an eight year old at Chuck E. Cheese on a quad espresso rush.

As I have said, there is a reason I am trying to stay focused here with you on one thing at a time, that thing being Putin's nonsensical justifications for his war on Ukraine (which you have adopted and now amplify). And by staying focused here on one thing at a time, I am NOT saying that nothing else matters or is worth discussing. I am NOT saying that our own conduct is blameless or good or even acceptable, or in fact anything at all about Israel and so on.

I am talking about ONE ingredient (being Putin's nonsensical justifications for his war on Ukraine), and you are talking about what's in the global blender after 90 seconds on MAX.

You have very plainly adopted, whether you wanted to or not, and you now amplify, whether you want to or not, Putin's bogus pretext for his war on Ukraine. And that alignment continues through to what you call "deescalation" - which really means that (like Putin says) you think Ukraine should give Russia land and people. It continues through to what you describe as our failed strategy (which is what Putin, through Trump, has wrought).

And when you are challenged on the fundamental error at the heart of everything you have to say on Russia/Ukraine (being that you, like others, have fallen in line with nonsense), you spin off into forty-seven tangents that have nothing to do with the specific, basic issue that you are challenged on.

[jfish26]

This is not a KCrim-specific issue after all.

Top Republican warns pro-Russia messages are echoed ‘on the House floor’

The latest remarks come after another GOP member said Russian propaganda has ‘infected’ the Republican base

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... -congress/

Rep. Michael R. Turner (R-Ohio), who chairs the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, said Sunday that it was “absolutely true” that some Republican members of Congress were repeating Russian propaganda about the invasion of Ukraine instigated by Russian President Vladimir Putin.

Turner did not specify which members he was referring to, but he said he agreed with House Foreign Affairs Committee Chair Michael McCaul (R-Tex.), who said in an interview with Puck News last week that Russian propaganda had “infected a good chunk of my party’s base” and suggested that conservative media was to blame.

When asked on Sunday, Turner said he agreed with McCaul’s sentiments.

“We see directly coming from Russia attempts to mask communications that are anti-Ukraine and pro-Russia messages — some of which we even hear being uttered on the House floor,” Turner said on CNN’s “State of the Union.”

The pro-Russia messaging, Turner said, has made it harder for Ukraine’s supporters in the GOP to frame the conflict as “an authoritarian-versus-democracy battle.” “Ukraine needs our help and assistance now, and this is a very critical time for the U.S. Congress to step up and provide that aid,” Turner added.

Billions of dollars in badly needed military funding for Ukraine has stalled in Congress for months, amid growing opposition from Republicans, and particular vehemence from the GOP’s right flank. Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene (R-Ga.), who has proposed forging a “peace treaty with Russia” in lieu of supporting Ukraine, has vowed to remove House Speaker Mike Johnson (R-La.) should he move forward with a vote on an aid package.

When Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky in December traveled to Washington to try to secure a breakthrough for additional U.S. military aid, Greene said she was opposed.

Greene wrote on X, “Why doesn’t anyone in Washington talk about a peace treaty with Russia?? A deal with Putin promising he will not continue any further invasions. Answer: Washington wants war, not peace.”

[ousdahl]

I don’t doubt that Russia spreads misinformation.

But it’s pretty wild that the only example that article provides is, “Washington wants war.”

[ousdahl]

Not 100.0%

That’s exactly what Putin would say.

But fish, for real, at some point you gotta realize just how biased you are…and just how conditioned by the “WMDs in Iraq” style rhetoric you are.

I mean shit, to literally just go ahead and double down on “bad guy” language, not only without any irony, but with a dogmatic conviction, while also dismissing anything but as bad guy propaganda, and burying your head in sand about everything else…I mean shit! You’re a walking case study in imperial propaganda conditioning.

I am responding, too, to your posts below this quoted one.

You are, still, bouncing from boogeyman to boogeyman like an eight year old at Chuck E. Cheese on a quad espresso rush.

As I have said, there is a reason I am trying to stay focused here with you on one thing at a time, that thing being Putin's nonsensical justifications for his war on Ukraine (which you have adopted and now amplify). And by staying focused here on one thing at a time, I am NOT saying that nothing else matters or is worth discussing. I am NOT saying that our own conduct is blameless or good or even acceptable, or in fact anything at all about Israel and so on.

I am talking about ONE ingredient (being Putin's nonsensical justifications for his war on Ukraine), and you are talking about what's in the global blender after 90 seconds on MAX.

You have very plainly adopted, whether you wanted to or not, and you now amplify, whether you want to or not, Putin's bogus pretext for his war on Ukraine. And that alignment continues through to what you call "deescalation" - which really means that (like Putin says) you think Ukraine should give Russia land and people. It continues through to what you describe as our failed strategy (which is what Putin, through Trump, has wrought).

And when you are challenged on the fundamental error at the heart of everything you have to say on Russia/Ukraine (being that you, like others, have fallen in line with nonsense), you spin off into forty-seven tangents that have nothing to do with the specific, basic issue that you are challenged on.

More condescension and gaslights.

This is futile.

This is the reason I’ve avoided discussing Ukraine here more and more.

And, considering you refuse to discuss any other foreign conflict even if we’re involved, and only to go back to fussing about Ukraine, I don’t think it’s worth discussing any other foreign conflicts here either.

[TDub]

I would suggest that if you think JFish has been condescending, or anything other than extremely patient and incredibly kind to you in his explanations......

then I would suggest you've lost your goddamn mind.


how many people can you call condescending simply because they disagree with you and call out your bullshit.

hey, at least the bumble babes love your stuff right? why don't you save it for them...you can go baffle them with your bullshit. Some bright ones you've picked out, I see.

[jfish26]

Not 100.0%

That’s exactly what Putin would say.

But fish, for real, at some point you gotta realize just how biased you are…and just how conditioned by the “WMDs in Iraq” style rhetoric you are.

I mean shit, to literally just go ahead and double down on “bad guy” language, not only without any irony, but with a dogmatic conviction, while also dismissing anything but as bad guy propaganda, and burying your head in sand about everything else…I mean shit! You’re a walking case study in imperial propaganda conditioning.

I am responding, too, to your posts below this quoted one.

You are, still, bouncing from boogeyman to boogeyman like an eight year old at Chuck E. Cheese on a quad espresso rush.

As I have said, there is a reason I am trying to stay focused here with you on one thing at a time, that thing being Putin's nonsensical justifications for his war on Ukraine (which you have adopted and now amplify). And by staying focused here on one thing at a time, I am NOT saying that nothing else matters or is worth discussing. I am NOT saying that our own conduct is blameless or good or even acceptable, or in fact anything at all about Israel and so on.

I am talking about ONE ingredient (being Putin's nonsensical justifications for his war on Ukraine), and you are talking about what's in the global blender after 90 seconds on MAX.

You have very plainly adopted, whether you wanted to or not, and you now amplify, whether you want to or not, Putin's bogus pretext for his war on Ukraine. And that alignment continues through to what you call "deescalation" - which really means that (like Putin says) you think Ukraine should give Russia land and people. It continues through to what you describe as our failed strategy (which is what Putin, through Trump, has wrought).

And when you are challenged on the fundamental error at the heart of everything you have to say on Russia/Ukraine (being that you, like others, have fallen in line with nonsense), you spin off into forty-seven tangents that have nothing to do with the specific, basic issue that you are challenged on.

More condescension and gaslights.

This is futile.

This is the reason I’ve avoided discussing Ukraine here more and more.

And, considering you refuse to discuss any other foreign conflict even if we’re involved, and only to go back to fussing about Ukraine, I don’t think it’s worth discussing any other foreign conflicts here either.

As I’ve said in the past, I don’t feel that I have a very good grasp on the Israel/Hamas/Iran/Russia side of things.

I think there are many more variables, and that we have much poorer visibility into how the pieces fit. Our interests there are also comparatively indirect, in one sense, but bound up more closely with American politics, in another sense.

All of this leaves me unsure of my footing, and so I don’t take a firm or strong position on something I feel I don’t understand.

[KUTradition]

I would suggest that if you think JFish has been condescending, or anything other than extremely patient and incredibly kind to you in his explanations......

then I would suggest you've lost your goddamn mind.


how many people can you call condescending simply because they disagree with you and call out your bullshit.

hey, at least the bumble babes love your stuff right? why don't you save it for them...you can go baffle them with your bullshit. Some bright ones you've picked out, I see.

it’s all so childish

nobody agrees with him, so he throws a temper tantrum, calls people names, and deliberately misrepresents their stances

it’s like he’s stuck in that first summer after freshman year…he just completed western civ. and has convinced himself that he’s got all of the world’s problems figured out, despite not having actually lived a day in the real world

given his posting habits across the board, the above description would seem to extend beyond this thread

[ousdahl]

This feels like more gaslighting.

“No you’re just childish! You’ve lost your goddamn mind!”


…do you guys know what gaslighting is?