serve and protect

Ugh.
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ousdahl
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Re: serve and protect

Post by ousdahl »

twocoach wrote: Thu May 02, 2024 2:55 pm

"The establishment response"? "The establishment" doesn't respond to anti-war protests. The media report on them. The universities have from what I have seen, attempted to engage in discussions about what specifically the protestors want. And then finally the police have gotten involved when groups have become more difficult to manage or have begun to break laws that are in place.

Any protestor who thinks that a protest on the campus of a university is going to result in a change in policy by the Federal Government or a change in action by the Israeli government is an idiot.

From what I have seen, colleges have attempted to deal with the protests and when protesters have refused to participate in those discussions or have begun to break the law then the police have gotten involved.

You can't break into a building and be mad that "the establishment" arrested you.
wait, you start this and end this with what seems to be conflicting perceptions of "the establishment."

I'd say the establishment is precisely the media, and universities, and police.

As for whether "a protest on the campus of a university is going to result in a change in policy by the Federal Government or a change in action by the Israeli government," isn't that kinda what happened with student protests against South African apartheid? It's a matter of whether some sort of actual divestment happens, I guess.

There's also a point I heard on NPR about what are donors gonna think when they visit these campuses for graduation and see protestors everywhere?

as for breaking into a building into a building - while I don't condone property damage, I also think property damage pales in comparison to the crimes against humanity that prompted the protests to begin with.
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ousdahl
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Re: serve and protect

Post by ousdahl »

zsn wrote: Thu May 02, 2024 3:26 pm It was reported widely, by reputable news outlets (among my sources, NPR), that pro-Israeli “protesters” in the UCLA incident were clearly armed with sticks and other weapons while the pro-Palestinian protesters were not. It was reported that the former group was there looking for a fight and violence. This corroborates the Al Jazeera reporting.

I don’t want to get into the rest of the debate but there’s no reason to doubt the story just based on who’s doing the reporting.
I don't blame you not wanting to get into the rest of the debate.

But I do want to at least compliment a good post.

I intentionally picked a (non-western) news source hoping someone might comment on it, and/or even share a more western news source as well. Thanks for that.

Cuz, man, talk about slant. Both ways! Mich's Al Qaida news words the report, um, much more strongly than NPR's "people set off fireworks" sort of reporting. (assuming I found the same article you did)

https://www.npr.org/2024/05/01/12484336 ... lestinians

and, here's a friendly reminder to just sorta be skeptical of everything, especially when it involves imperialism and war narratives.
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ousdahl
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Re: serve and protect

Post by ousdahl »

RainbowsandUnicorns wrote: Thu May 02, 2024 9:50 am Read the room ousy.
Don't expect people to see your point of view/s if you refuse to see/hear and understand their's.
You are NOT trying to "discuss" issues. You are trying to express your one sided view/s - and dare I say knowingly trolling?

Your post at 7:54am - I have said it before and I will say it again. Two wrongs don't make a right but I find it interesting that you continue to focus on the response and not what causes the response.

You want to focus on genocide you feel Israel is committing in Gaza but you refuse to focus on how Hamas would eventually wipe Israel off the planet if they had the means to do it.

You provide a link from Al Jazeera in regards to the RESPONSE of what had occurred and your post includes the words "occupied by peaceful pro-Palestinian protesters". NO!!!! Hardly fucking "peaceful". NOT "peaceful at all"!
I know people who are there. People who are both "demonstrating" for Palestine and people who are there to show they are "pro Israel". I have been told it's been far from peaceful and yes, BOTH sides are responsible for the LACK of peace. Please stop with believing the pro Palestine people are being peaceful bullshit! Sure some are but some are not. I have no problem saying SOME of the pro Israel people are NOT being peaceful either.
thanks gutter.

your read the room comment prompted me to just wanna step back from this topic for the weekend. And, also, cuz I had a crazy busy weekend.

And cuz, man, I promise I'm not trying to troll.

I'm trying to limit the discussion to these protests relevant to this thread. That's to say, I really am trying to avoid the Israel/Palestine thread directly. But, when it affects/is affected by this thread and the war thread and the Uncle Joe thread and so many other threads, it's tricky not to.

but, fwiw, yours is among the views and opinions I'm most curious to hear about all this - in no small part also cuz you've always been a decent enough dood about discussions here on the boreds. Thanks for that.

Cuz, yea, I don't refuse to focus on how maybe Hamas WOULD want to wipe Israel off the planet if they had the means to do it. That's def a concern! And fortunately they haven't/don't have the means!

But if we can express that concern, I think we can also express the concern that Israel like so obviously and totally IS wiping Palestine off the planet - both Gaza and the West Bank - with weapons paid for by your and my tax dollars, and (again trying to stick to this thread) U.S. student tuitions.

maybe that's necessary? And whether it is or not, maybe it weighs on some people's consciences. If it IS necessary, I'm guessing it's cuz Hamas might wipe Israel off the planet. Maybe we can't help that. But the fact Israel IS wiping Palestine off the planet, given our own country's investments, maybe is something we can help?

I dunno.

Maybe that's still trolling. I hope not.

I mean, if I DID want to troll, I'd just persist directly in the Israel/Palestine thread, about how just today Hamas apparently accepted the ceasefire deal proposed by Overlander and Egyptian and Qatari mediators, and Israel responded by bombing the fuck out of Rafah some more, with that ground assault imminent. Oh, but don't worry, cuz Israel did the humanitarian favor of ordering civilians to evacuate Rafah...but here's the thing...Israel already ordered these people to evacuate to Rafah to begin with! Where the fuck else are they supposed to go?

What might also move the needle is that maybe/apparently that ceasefire was proposed by Overlander and Egyptian and Qatari and United States mediators, in which case, I wonder how THAT might play out.

I digress. Sorry. You gotta pay the troll toll if you wanna get into this boy's...nm
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Re: serve and protect

Post by RainbowsandUnicorns »

I can't say Israel isn't bit by bit "wiping Palestine off the planet".
Probably a terrible analogy but it's sort of like waterboarding. I'm not Netanyahu nor am I the head of the IDF but I have to assume that's sort of their strategy. Unfortunately for all involved in the conflict, it's making Israel come off looking really bad.

Neither you nor I 100% know what specific weapons they are using, where exactly they came from, and where the money they cost came from. We can read about the assumptions, and it's a safe assumption that "our tax dollars" helped pay for some if not most of the weapons, but I find it a bit hypocritical to bitch about "my"/"our" tax dollars paying for weapons when I would guess 90% of people in this country probably couldn't come within 250 billion dollars of guessing how much the USA spends on weapons and defense every year - nor do they know where their tax dollars are truly going to.
As far as US Student's tuition dollars going to fund weapons being sent to Israel, I have my doubts about that.
My tax dollars may go to help things such as funding infrastructure in the USA, medicare and social security in the USA, eduction in the USA, and "defense" in the USA. Why would I be opposed to any of that? Of course "DEFENSE" being a key word. I am "anti-war". I am 100% in support of the USA and Israel having the right to DEFEND itself. By all means necessary? That's a tough thing to think about and how and why am I the ultimate judge of that?
Yes, Israel is now on the OFFENSIVE but to use a sports analogy, sure defense wins ball games but the object of winning the game is to score more points than the opponent. You have to score to win. Yes, Israel is trying to beat the shit out of Hamas and winning by a single point is not their objective.

Israel feels it has to 100% destroy Hamas to assure its safety but between you and I, it's never going to happen. Ok, maybe it can happen for today but whether it's Hamas or some other "terrorist organization" the youth in Gaza will form another "terrorist organization" and the "bad guys" will bring in other "terrorist organizations" in to Gaza.
There needs to be a PEACEFUL resolution of some kind. A way for Israelis and Gazans to co-exist PEACEFULLY. War is NOT the answer.

As far as Hamas accepting the "ceasefire deal", great. Any idea what exactly the "deal" is?
I don't accept that "Israel responded by".... Israel had the plan in place before the "deal" was accepted by Hamas. Sure Israel bombed Rafah but there was a BIG objective and supposedly a big part of it was achieved. My hope is that is the end of it but I highly doubt it is.
As far as Israel "ordering" and your asking where the people are supposed to go, Israel has told them where to go and where they would be supplied with "humanitarian" aide. Of course it's terrible, and much easier said than done, but again, it's better than not "ordering" anything and just raping and killing civilians because you know, they were at a music festival during a time of peace.

On a related note, I can't help but get pissed off about how ignorant many of the "protesters" are.
Every time I hear the words Jews and Zionism associated with Israel from the protesters I wonder how many of them know that there are over 2.5 million NON Jews living in Israel - including probably close to 2 million "Arabs". I wonder if they realize Christianity and Islam are "FREELY" practiced in Israel. I wonder if they realize there are NON Jews in the Israeli government and Israeli defense forces.

Another thing that bugs me is this is what SOME in our country have become in "support" of "Palestine".
This was two blocks away from where my Jewish co-worker lives. A neighborhood where he chose to raise his kids because he wants them to grow up with diversity - instead of choosing to live in a lily white suburb.

https://twitter.com/StopChiAntisems/sta ... 6024346948
Gutter wrote: Fri Nov 8th 2:16pm
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ousdahl
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Re: serve and protect

Post by ousdahl »

more good perspective, gutter.

Might try to discuss more later once I don't have to be getting ready for work/working, but for now, I'd at least like to say...

that tweeter vid is fucked up.
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twocoach
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Re: serve and protect

Post by twocoach »

ousdahl wrote: Mon May 06, 2024 9:43 pm
twocoach wrote: Thu May 02, 2024 2:55 pm

"The establishment response"? "The establishment" doesn't respond to anti-war protests. The media report on them. The universities have from what I have seen, attempted to engage in discussions about what specifically the protestors want. And then finally the police have gotten involved when groups have become more difficult to manage or have begun to break laws that are in place.

Any protestor who thinks that a protest on the campus of a university is going to result in a change in policy by the Federal Government or a change in action by the Israeli government is an idiot.

From what I have seen, colleges have attempted to deal with the protests and when protesters have refused to participate in those discussions or have begun to break the law then the police have gotten involved.

You can't break into a building and be mad that "the establishment" arrested you.
wait, you start this and end this with what seems to be conflicting perceptions of "the establishment."

I'd say the establishment is precisely the media, and universities, and police.

As for whether "a protest on the campus of a university is going to result in a change in policy by the Federal Government or a change in action by the Israeli government," isn't that kinda what happened with student protests against South African apartheid? It's a matter of whether some sort of actual divestment happens, I guess.

There's also a point I heard on NPR about what are donors gonna think when they visit these campuses for graduation and see protestors everywhere?

as for breaking into a building into a building - while I don't condone property damage, I also think property damage pales in comparison to the crimes against humanity that prompted the protests to begin with.
This isn't apartheid. There isn't one bad side and one good side. How do you pick which set of atrocities to protest? Was it fine that Hamas raped tortured and murdered innocent Israelis? Or is it only a problem that in response to that, the Israeli government has now committed their own atrocities? Any protest that doesn't call the horrible actions of both Israel and Hamas to task is fucking stupid and tone deaf.
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KUTradition
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Re: serve and protect

Post by KUTradition »

i don’t recall ANY protests in the aftermath of oct. 7
Have we fallen into a mesmerized state that makes us accept as inevitable that which is inferior or detrimental, as though having lost the will or the vision to demand that which is good?
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Re: serve and protect

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KUTradition wrote: Wed May 08, 2024 10:44 am i don’t recall ANY protests in the aftermath of oct. 7
^^^

Which is a perfect example of how, when it comes to minorities, (Jews make up ~ 2% of the world's population), Jews are held to a totally different standard and almost never get any of the compassion and consideration other minorities do.
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ousdahl
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Re: serve and protect

Post by ousdahl »

Are you kidding me?!

They get their own fucking nation!

What other minority is afforded that?
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Re: serve and protect

Post by Shirley »

ousdahl wrote: Wed May 08, 2024 11:48 am Are you kidding me?!

They get their own fucking nation!

What other minority is afforded that?
Oh, OK. I guess that means they aren't a minority anymore, and the fact that 1/3rd of their total population in the world was exterminated by the Nazis doesn't count.

my bad
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ousdahl
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Re: serve and protect

Post by ousdahl »

I never said they weren’t a minority, nor that the Nazis didn’t try to wipe them off the planet.

I just think that because the Nazis tried to wipe them off the planet during WW2 is no excuse for Israel to wipe Palestinians off the planet today.
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Re: serve and protect

Post by Shirley »

ousdahl wrote: Wed May 08, 2024 11:58 am I never said they weren’t a minority, nor that the Nazis didn’t try to wipe them off the planet.

I just think that because the Nazis tried to wipe them off the planet during WW2 is no excuse for Israel to wipe Palestinians off the planet today.
I don't either.

So, I think the terrorist organization Hamas, whose purpose to exist is to "wipe Israel off the planet", should stop hiding behind the Palestinian people while it pursues its sole purpose to exist.
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Re: serve and protect

Post by RainbowsandUnicorns »

ousdahl wrote: Wed May 08, 2024 11:48 am Are you kidding me?!

They get their own fucking nation!

What other minority is afforded that?
Pretty soon, probably in your life time, "Caucasians" in the USA.

P.S. I wouldn't say Israel is their (Jews) own fucking nation.
At least 25% of the people who live FREELY in Israel are not Jewish.
The majority of Jews in the world do not live in Israel.
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Re: serve and protect

Post by RainbowsandUnicorns »

ousdahl wrote: Wed May 08, 2024 11:58 am I never said they weren’t a minority, nor that the Nazis didn’t try to wipe them off the planet.

I just think that because the Nazis tried to wipe them off the planet during WW2 is no excuse for Israel to wipe Palestinians off the planet today.
Overly simplistic semi quick response....

Actually, it kind of is an excuse for Israel to wipe Palestinians off the planet today.
Not an excuse that I agree with in principal but I'm just sayin', it's an excuse if you really give it some thought.
If it comes down to kill or be killed, most living beings would choose kill.
Of course it sucks that "innocent" people are being killed but many (I didn't say most) of those "innocent" people support Hamas and the annihilation of Israel.

As someone who has had family members serve in the IDF and have discussed it with them, not a single one of them told me they would take ANY pleasure in killing an innocent civilian. I'm sure there may be some in the IDF who do - but my guess is not many.
It's a sick thought but it's as if the IDF has to have the mentality of it's unfortunate collateral damage.
Sucks those people are being killed but that's something that when we look at the big picture, it's easy to blame Israel for it but the leaders of their country are responsible for it as well. Their leaders made a choice that they are suffering from.
Gutter wrote: Fri Nov 8th 2:16pm
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Re: serve and protect

Post by KUTradition »

Shirley wrote: Wed May 08, 2024 12:08 pm
ousdahl wrote: Wed May 08, 2024 11:58 am I never said they weren’t a minority, nor that the Nazis didn’t try to wipe them off the planet.

I just think that because the Nazis tried to wipe them off the planet during WW2 is no excuse for Israel to wipe Palestinians off the planet today.
I don't either.

So, I think the terrorist organization Hamas, whose purpose to exist is to "wipe Israel off the planet", should stop hiding behind the Palestinian people while it pursues its sole purpose to exist.
if only hamas was the only such group in the region…
Have we fallen into a mesmerized state that makes us accept as inevitable that which is inferior or detrimental, as though having lost the will or the vision to demand that which is good?
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Re: serve and protect

Post by ousdahl »

Is it wrong to suggest Hamas and Zionism are pretty much the same thing?

Both are militant right wing religious extremists who wanna wipe the other off the planet.

The big difference is, one gets labeled a “terrorist organization,” and the other one gets weapons from you and me.

Imperialism be funny like that.

(Again, Hamas might instead be labeled “freedom fighter,” and given weapons too, if our empire decided the juice was worth the squeeze…remember when doods like Bin Laden and Saddam were our allies?)

Back on topic…

Who would have guessed this generation’s Neil Young “Ohio,” this generation’s creative voice, would be…Macklemore?!

https://youtu.be/fgDQyFeBBIo?si=OWpjJufSkJV3Gj2C
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KUTradition
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Re: serve and protect

Post by KUTradition »

mjl was right about you
Have we fallen into a mesmerized state that makes us accept as inevitable that which is inferior or detrimental, as though having lost the will or the vision to demand that which is good?
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Re: serve and protect

Post by RainbowsandUnicorns »

KUTradition wrote: Thu May 09, 2024 8:51 am mjl was right about you
I don't know what mjl said about him but what I do know is that I hope he was on some hard drugs when he posted that. For his sake.
Gutter wrote: Fri Nov 8th 2:16pm
New President - New Gutter. I am going to pledge my allegiance to Donald J. Trump and for the next 4 years I am going to be an even bigger asshole than I already am.
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Re: serve and protect

Post by Shirley »

ousdahl wrote: Thu May 09, 2024 8:09 am Is it wrong to suggest Hamas and Zionism are pretty much the same thing?

Both are militant right wing religious extremists who wanna wipe the other off the planet.

The big difference is, one gets labeled a “terrorist organization,” and the other one gets weapons from you and me.

Imperialism be funny like that.

(Again, Hamas might instead be labeled “freedom fighter,” and given weapons too, if our empire decided the juice was worth the squeeze…remember when doods like Bin Laden and Saddam were our allies?)

Back on topic…

Who would have guessed this generation’s Neil Young “Ohio,” this generation’s creative voice, would be…Macklemore?!

https://youtu.be/fgDQyFeBBIo?si=OWpjJufSkJV3Gj2C
I'm not clicking on that link, and like Gutter, I'm not sure what mji said, (although I remain sorry you managed to chase him off), but as I have said on more than one occasion previously, your false equivalencies and tortured conflations, like the fucking crazy ones in the post above, make you impossible to have a discussion with, appear desperate to make a point, and not worth paying attention to.
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Re: serve and protect

Post by jfish26 »

ousdahl wrote: Thu May 09, 2024 8:09 am Is it wrong to suggest [that X and Y] are pretty much the same thing?
This should be the sort of thing that, when it crosses the ol' cerebellum transom, should make one stop and think, am I sure here?.
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