Uncle Joe

Ugh.
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ousdahl
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Re: Uncle Joe

Post by ousdahl »

jfish26 wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 6:46 am
ousdahl wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2024 10:01 pm
jfish26 wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2024 1:58 pm You gonna say you got hacked or something?





These were back to back posts. You had already responded to a different post of twocoach's (which post, and your response, preceded these posts). It would be nonsensical to suggest that your post was not responsive to mine.
oh, okay, fine. I guess I can see how you thought that was some distortion and/or falsehood, if you didn't sense the cheekiness to the Clinton comment, and if you also sensed that was the only thing to take away from everthing else I said.
You are missing (or avoiding) the point again.

You built your criticisms of Biden on distortions and falsehoods. When you do that, you are signaling the weakness in your argument. One need not support a strong argument with distortions and falsehoods.
You sure this isn’t just more of those blatantly obvious sorts of issues that you cannot, or simply will not, understand?

I don’t think it’s “cannot.” Rather than stoop to other’s levels and suggest you’re stupid, I think you’re certainly bright enough. This is more a stubborn thing.

Cuz fwiw I don’t think they’re distortions, nor falsehoods!

Your refusal to even allow criticisms you don’t like here is wild. Like maybe even starting to get concerning.
DeletedUser
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Re: Uncle Joe

Post by DeletedUser »

JFC.

You should be concerned about yourself, not JFish.
jfish26
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Re: Uncle Joe

Post by jfish26 »

ousdahl wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 7:51 am
jfish26 wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 6:46 am
ousdahl wrote: Wed Jun 12, 2024 10:01 pm

oh, okay, fine. I guess I can see how you thought that was some distortion and/or falsehood, if you didn't sense the cheekiness to the Clinton comment, and if you also sensed that was the only thing to take away from everthing else I said.
You are missing (or avoiding) the point again.

You built your criticisms of Biden on distortions and falsehoods. When you do that, you are signaling the weakness in your argument. One need not support a strong argument with distortions and falsehoods.
You sure this isn’t just more of those blatantly obvious sorts of issues that you cannot, or simply will not, understand?

I don’t think it’s “cannot.” Rather than stoop to other’s levels and suggest you’re stupid, I think you’re certainly bright enough. This is more a stubborn thing.

Cuz fwiw I don’t think they’re distortions, nor falsehoods!

Your refusal to even allow criticisms you don’t like here is wild. Like maybe even starting to get concerning.
A statement that the United States is waging a proxy war in Ukraine is, based on all evidence available to us here, a falsehood. Among many other flaws, your falsehood is based on a premise (someone but Putin bears responsibility for Putin starting his war, and continuing his war) you continue to state or assume as fact, but which is not a fact.

Putin was not justified in making war on Ukraine. He can stop making war on Ukraine at any time.

When you include a falsehood as one of four arguments supporting your point, and the other three arguments are ALSO in gray areas at best (for your point), then taken as a whole your arguments simply do not support your point.

And when you, confronted with this fundamental and fatal weakness of your point, take an absolutist, doubling-down approach (suggesting that this is a "blatantly obvious sort of issue" that I am failing to understand)...well, now you are adopting bad-faith right wing argument strategies, not just the talking point themselves.

And so you continue down a slide nobody here wants to see you on.
Sparko
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Re: Uncle Joe

Post by Sparko »

Again, Fish thanks for the patient recitation of reality again. There is an interesting bit at the end of this interview on disinformation in social media spaces designed to inflame the edges of the political spectrum, and get them to parrot Russian talking points without any self awareness:

https://youtu.be/onmER6r63EI?si=OvSQfrmGZBgpOt-X

It has become an acute problem since 2016. Kind of late to take active measures, but some steps apparently underway. Russia has always been good at exploiting vulnerabilities of those who show signs of being useful in believing the worst.
jfish26
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Re: Uncle Joe

Post by jfish26 »

Sparko wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 8:56 am Again, Fish thanks for the patient recitation of reality again. There is an interesting bit at the end of this interview on disinformation in social media spaces designed to inflame the edges of the political spectrum, and get them to parrot Russian talking points without any self awareness:

https://youtu.be/onmER6r63EI?si=OvSQfrmGZBgpOt-X

It has become an acute problem since 2016. Kind of late to take active measures, but some steps apparently underway. Russia has always been good at exploiting vulnerabilities of those who show signs of being useful in believing the worst.
We're right back here: viewtopic.php?p=396986&hilit=sincerely+held#p396986
jfish26
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Re: Uncle Joe

Post by jfish26 »

June 12, 2024

https://heathercoxrichardson.substack.c ... ne-12-2024
On June 13, 1942, President Franklin D. Roosevelt issued Executive Order 9182, consolidating a number of different government information offices into the Office of War Information (OWI). The mission of the new agency was to gather public information and to spread it across the U.S. and abroad through the press, radio, motion pictures, and other media. Its aim, in the middle of World War II, was to develop “an informed and intelligent understanding, at home and abroad, of the status and progress of the war effort and of the war policies, activities, and aims of the Government.”

The United States had experimented with a government information bureau during World War I. After the U.S. declared war on Germany on April 6, 1917, the Secretaries of State, War, and the Navy asked the president to create a Committee on Public Information (CPI) to unify Americans behind the war. They had watched as artists whipped up enthusiasm for enlisting to fight the Germans as early as 1915, with the sinking of the Lusitania, and wanted to create a similar shared experience over the war itself.

On April 13, 1917, President Woodrow Wilson created the committee through an executive order, then put newspaperman George Creel in charge of it. Creel had organized a committee of friendly newspapermen to promote Wilson's reelection in 1916. Strongly opposed to the idea of government censorship during the war, he instead promised to create an agency that, as he later wrote, would use “every possible media…to drive home the justice of America’s cause. Not to combat prejudices and disaffection at home was to weaken the firing line.” The CPI set out to reach every person in the U.S. by flooding the media zone with pamphlets, newspapers, posters, films, and short speeches given by so-called Four Minute Men, local figures who embellished talking points handed out by the CPI.

In 1940 the Council on Foreign Relations, a nonpartisan foreign relations think tank in New York City that had grown out of Wilson’s internationalism, published a book by Harold Tobin and Percy Bidwell titled Mobilizing Civilian America. It set out plans for putting the nation’s manufacturing and military on a war footing. It also noted that in the modern world, in which war was often about domestic production as much as numbers of troops, “victory may depend not so much on the skill of generals or the fighting quality of their troops, as on the loyalty and stamina of the men and women on the home front.”

With that in mind, the authors examined the Committee on Public Information and concluded that while the committee had done brilliantly at informing the public of the facts, the Four Minute Men and other local writers during World War I had spread “hysterical and fanatical outbursts,” sometimes in connection with bond drives, that had whipped up communities against their foreign-born neighbors and other alleged “spies in our midst.” After the war, Americans were so disgusted by their own campaign of hatred and violence against German-Americans, the authors wrote, that they were hugely resistant to anything they saw as propaganda.

Nonetheless, the authors said, if the U.S. got involved in another war, the government must be prepared for a public relations campaign. In such a case, they said, it was crucial for the government to make sure it stuck firmly to the truth and did not permit the kind of freelancers whose extreme rhetoric had hurt the CPI.

That advice seemed prescient in the months after the bombing of Pearl Harbor ushered the U.S. into World War II. Information came from different departments and bureaus, but no one seemed to be explaining what America’s goals were or what it was doing to achieve them. FDR was reluctant to set up an agency that his political opponents would charge was a propaganda outlet, but gradually he greenlit small agencies to explain the war to the country.

In June 1942, FDR pulled those agencies together as the Office of War Information, putting popular news commentator Elmer Davis in charge. Davis vowed to focus not on building morale but on delivering news that would enable people to understand what was at stake. OWI officials were chagrined to learn that in summer 1942 almost a third of Americans said they did not know what the country was fighting for, while Representative Joe Starnes (D-AL), for example, complained, “I think it is an insult to the intelligence of the American people to say that we do not know why we are fighting.”

In the three years it operated, the Office of War Information created radio programs that explained to Americans which nations were at war and why and others that portrayed life on the home front, and film documentaries about Japanese American incarceration, military training, and so on. Overseas, the OWI established the Voice of America, which is still the official U.S. international broadcasting service, as well as running secret radio stations and disseminating propaganda to harass enemy forces in combat zones. The OWI also examined scripts for Hollywood movies—1,652 of them before the war ended—to make sure they supported the Allies’ mission.

The OWI ran into trouble quickly as reporters determined to explain facts were overridden by advertising men who wanted to sell the war with positive stories, and both were often tripped up by military leaders who withheld information, especially negative stories, for “public safety.” By 1944, OWI operated mostly overseas, as FDR’s opponents insisted its domestic efforts were designed to help him politically. In September 1945, with the war over, president Harry Truman ended the OWI by executive order after congratulating it for its “outstanding contribution to victory.”

In the years to come, especially after the government’s disinformation regarding the Vietnam War, the idea of government propaganda fell into even more disrepute in the United States than it had in the aftermath of World War II, as the excesses possible under someone like the chief propagandist for Germany’s Nazi Party, Joseph Goebbels, became clear.

But we have been far less guarded against the ways in which other actors shape public opinion.

In February, cyber experts said that Russia was already spreading disinformation to influence the 2024 election, and in April, Senator Mark Warner (D-VA), the chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee, warned that the U.S. is more susceptible to Russian influence operations than it has ever been, despite the understanding of the importance of Russian influence operations on the 2016 election. “With polarization in this country, and the lack of faith in institutions, people will believe anything or not believe things that come from what used to be viewed as trusted sources of information,” Warner told Julian E. Barnes of the New York Times. “So there’s a much greater willingness to accept conspiracy theories.”

Also in April, Microsoft said it had uncovered fake social media profiles run by Chinese operatives to destabilize U.S. politics, and in May, TikTok said it took down thousands of accounts from fifteen covert influence operations in the first four months of 2024. Last week, NewsGuard reported on a network of 167 Russian disinformation sites fronted by a former deputy sheriff from Florida.

On June 6 the State Department’s top official on digital and cyber policy, Nate Fick, told an audience: “I don’t think most American citizens really viscerally understand how much of the content they see on social platforms is actually a foreign intelligence operation…. I just don’t think we viscerally get how much of what we see is bot-generated or foreign intelligence service–generated.”

Today, officials from the Office of the Director of National Intelligence (ODNI) told lawmakers that Russian influence operations aimed at undermining support for Ukraine and faith in democratic institutions provide the top threat to the upcoming U.S. election. China is the second-greatest threat but is more cautious because it is concerned about U.S. blowback, while the third, Iran, acts primarily as a “chaos agent,” trying to confuse voters. The ODNI officials said they have been issuing warnings to political candidates, government officials, and others targeted by foreign groups.

Senator Angus King (I-ME) urged Director of National Intelligence Avril Haines to make threats known to the public. “I’m worried that you may be overly concerned with appearing partisan and that that will freeze you in terms of taking the actions that are necessary,” he said. “Please ramp it up. We’ve got about six months and...we know that these adversaries are going to be coming at us.”


The modern propaganda flooding the U.S. portrays us as bitterly divided along lines of race and gender, religion and ethnicity. In contrast to this version of America is the one portrayed during World War II by the OWI documentary photography unit. Photographers who had been moved into the agency from the Farm Security Administration documented war work, women in the factories, and civil rights struggles, including those of the incarcerated Japanese Americans as well as Black and brown Americans, showing them at work or in their small towns or cities. The images were of ordinary Americans, often singled out as heroic individuals in their own frames, to represent the American people as a whole.

And these images were some of the most lasting and vital elements of the OWI’s work. If the hero of the military was the ordinary soldier, the G.I., as newspaper reporters wrote, the hero of the home front was the ordinary American who, in order to make sure that the G.I. had supplies, went to work in a factory or on a farm.

That image was central to the shaping of postwar America.
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ousdahl
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Re: Uncle Joe

Post by ousdahl »

jfish26 wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 8:43 am
ousdahl wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 7:51 am
jfish26 wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 6:46 am

You are missing (or avoiding) the point again.

You built your criticisms of Biden on distortions and falsehoods. When you do that, you are signaling the weakness in your argument. One need not support a strong argument with distortions and falsehoods.
You sure this isn’t just more of those blatantly obvious sorts of issues that you cannot, or simply will not, understand?

I don’t think it’s “cannot.” Rather than stoop to other’s levels and suggest you’re stupid, I think you’re certainly bright enough. This is more a stubborn thing.

Cuz fwiw I don’t think they’re distortions, nor falsehoods!

Your refusal to even allow criticisms you don’t like here is wild. Like maybe even starting to get concerning.
A statement that the United States is waging a proxy war in Ukraine is, based on all evidence available to us here, a falsehood. Among many other flaws, your falsehood is based on a premise (someone but Putin bears responsibility for Putin starting his war, and continuing his war) you continue to state or assume as fact, but which is not a fact.

Putin was not justified in making war on Ukraine. He can stop making war on Ukraine at any time.

When you include a falsehood as one of four arguments supporting your point, and the other three arguments are ALSO in gray areas at best (for your point), then taken as a whole your arguments simply do not support your point.

And when you, confronted with this fundamental and fatal weakness of your point, take an absolutist, doubling-down approach (suggesting that this is a "blatantly obvious sort of issue" that I am failing to understand)...well, now you are adopting bad-faith right wing argument strategies, not just the talking point themselves.

And so you continue down a slide nobody here wants to see you on.
I do think it’s blatantly obvious that the evidence here suggests this IS a U.S. proxy war in Ukraine. (Israel too!)

It’s you who summarily disregards the evidence presented, while also gloating about how this war helps U.S. interests like weakening Russia and flexing on China, as if that isn’t even more evidence of war by proxy in itself.

For real, how do you ignore the U.S.’s decades of meddling in Ukraine, the bajillions in weapons support, the more strategic support yet, the boots on the ground, the CIA black ops sites, the victory-lap pep rallies in the immediate aftermath of Maidan, MC’d by none other than Biden himself (oh hey we’re actually on topic here!), even if we somehow don’t bother to consider whether the U.S. was directly involved in Maidan either way.

I didn’t expect “proxy war” to be such a trigger. But I’ll admit, “right-wing” is a trigger for me. Rather, I think the more right-wing position espoused here is your dogged insistence upon the hawk-nationalist rhetoric about unprovoked, unilateral, one-to-tango perception of Ukraine, as if all the evidence just presented to you - once again! - is somehow immaterial.

But let’s not dwell on Ukraine, cuz we all know you can offer little more than another parroting of the WMDs-in-Iraq sort of talking points and a stubborn refusal to understand anything but.

Cuz honestly, I might walk back the “expand the police state.” Biden did sign off on billions to law enforcement, without addressing any sort of law enforcement reform, despite the wake of the BLM protests; not to mention the dozens of Cop Cities currently being built with him in the big chair.

As for environment, his big green bill seemed like a wolf in sheep’s clothing, considering all the concessions it made to oil. He also just relaxed fuel efficiency goals for passenger cars. He also crippled environmental regs for the sake of border security.

Speaking of, he did campaign in ‘20 on rhetoric like preserving access to asylum to migrant refugees, to contrast himself with Trump’s more hardline stance; only to now sign off on a more Trumpian limiting of access to asylum to migrant refugees.
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Re: Uncle Joe

Post by jfish26 »

A proxy war isn't something one sees, or doesn't see, in an ink blot. It is, as has been pointed out to you, something pretty specific.

We can - sigh - do the same thing I invited you to do (which I don't think you took me up on) when you claimed to be a victim of gaslighting:

Please go find an objectively-qualified person's definition of "proxy war" that you think very BEST supports your claim that the US is, as you say, waging a proxy war in Ukraine, and let’s talk about it. Let’s talk about this in the terms that are the very MOST favorable to your claim. Let's apply facts and evidence to an accepted definition, and see where we land on whether the definition does or doesn't apply.

Otherwise, all you're doing (again) is finding a scary word/phrase and insisting it applies to something you don't like.
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Re: Uncle Joe

Post by Sparko »

The Cold War never really went away so much as left the collective consciousness for a few years. There used to be influence operations in Africa or Cuba that might qualify as proxy war, but the invasion of Ukraine is a real war with huge stakes. Ukraine is fighting for its life while people don't understand it is an older sovereign nation than Russia. Because of disinformation. It feels like the U.S. and NATO should be blamed when you are spring-loaded to see everything that way--but the stakes are too high to indulge buffoonery. Like the folks who only began to care about Palestine this year. Many of us have for years been alarmed by the turn towards the far right in Israel and the stupid own-goal bolstering of Iran by Trump and W.
DeletedUser
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Re: Uncle Joe

Post by DeletedUser »

Gaslighting. Proxy war.

Q you're struggling with the meanings of those words.
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KUTradition
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Re: Uncle Joe

Post by KUTradition »

grunt, grunt
Have we fallen into a mesmerized state that makes us accept as inevitable that which is inferior or detrimental, as though having lost the will or the vision to demand that which is good?
jfish26
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Re: Uncle Joe

Post by jfish26 »

DeletedUser wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 12:25 pm Gaslighting. Proxy war.

Q you're struggling with the meanings of those words.
As you said, words and definitions matter.

And they matter quite a lot in this particular instance, and the fight over this particular phrase - because at issue here (still, somehow, again, always, apparently forever) is the entire premise of who bears responsibility for the war in Ukraine.

In my opinion, ous - for whatever reason(s) - will not bring himself to admit that this is not a complicated analysis. The history is complicated. The future is complicated.

But who bears responsibility for the war in Ukraine, and everything that has flowed from it, and who should and shouldn't be expected to make concessions for "peace", etc. - is pretty damn straightforward.
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ousdahl
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Re: Uncle Joe

Post by ousdahl »

Yea, if your world view depends on the theory that it only takes one to tango.

This is like arguing with lobster about Covid.
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Re: Uncle Joe

Post by DeletedUser »

ousdahl wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 1:08 pm Yea, if your world view depends on the theory that it only takes one to tango.
JFC
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Re: Uncle Joe

Post by DeletedUser »

ousdahl wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 1:08 pm This is like arguing with lobster about Covid.
Yes, but not in the way you think.
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ousdahl
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Re: Uncle Joe

Post by ousdahl »

You sure?

I mean, I’ve tried to articulate my positions, and not dwell on one particular issue.

The ones who fail to articulate when asked and keep doubling down on the same sad narrow points to the exclusion of all the evidence otherwise and the other discussions to be had are…well…
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Re: Uncle Joe

Post by DeletedUser »

I'm sure.

And, no. That's not what is happening here.
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ousdahl
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Re: Uncle Joe

Post by ousdahl »

Well then what’s happening?

I try to change the subject to things like policing and environment and immigration, and you guys keep doubling down on semantic arguments and how uncomplicated the good guy bad guy narratives are.
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Re: Uncle Joe

Post by DeletedUser »

Wrong again.
jfish26
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Re: Uncle Joe

Post by jfish26 »

ousdahl wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 1:22 pm You sure?

I mean, I’ve tried to articulate my positions, and not dwell on one particular issue.

The ones who fail to articulate when asked and keep doubling down on the same sad narrow points to the exclusion of all the evidence otherwise and the other discussions to be had are…well…
This is not an honest way to describe what has happened here.

You are on a months- or years-long exercise in flooding the zone with shit, which you are doing to distract (yourself? us? both?) from the fatal flaw at the heart of everything you have to say on this subject.

The poison you gobbled down like it was the antidote to something - I refer you again to Putin's talking points at the start of the war - has seeped into and infected everything you have to say on this subject.

But go on, project the doubling-down right back onto everyone else.
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