Let’s have a war!

[ousdahl]

I've wondered this too, Shirley.

I think the answer is (at least) two-fold:

1. just some old-fashioned NIMBY. Immigrants and refugees have pretty much always had a rough go of it. (And especially considering our own nation's border policies, like, right now, I don't think we're exactly in a good position to look down our noses at other countries that hesitate to welcome asylum-seekers....or heck, why not make it the United States's responsibility to take in Palestinian refugees?)

2. it's almost paradoxical, but there's some element of support for or solidarity with the Palestinian people. The neighboring countries don't want to take in Palestinians cuz they don't wanna see (even more) Palestinians be permanently displaced from Palestine.

I think the outrage to take away may be less that neighboring countries won't take in Palestinians, and more the violent displacement of the Palestinian people and occupation and settlement of Palestine in the first place.

and I'm also pretty sure many Palestinian people don't want to leave Palestinian lands, even despite the threat of violence, especially considering such a low likelihood of return.

Just for a thought experiment: imagine someone trying to argue that Ukrainians should just concede to the Russian occupation and flee to places like Poland and Romania, who should be obligated to offer asylum.

[ousdahl]

NPR had a bit about it yesterday.

For older generations, they grew up in the wake of the Holocaust, and perceive Israel as some “underdog,” to use NPR’s term.

But for younger generations, they perceive Israel based more on their treatment of Palestinians.

The awareness of which has only grown with the increases in coverage afforded by social media - similar to the role social media played with bringing increased awareness to American police brutality and the George Floyd murder and the BLM movement.

The NPR piece was more specially about voter support for Biden among younger generations. It mentioned Biden’s handling of Gaza was among the bigger issues for younger voters, tho Biden’s handling of Gaza was among the bigger issues for younger voters…tho that’s for another thread.

"Their treatment of the Palestinians".....
* The Palestinian "government" treats their citizens like shit. Do any of those people take that in to account? Probably a small percentage but a huge percentage thinks the Israelis are 100% to blame for the current plight of the Palestinian citizens.

"The awareness".....
* The percentage of people who consider themselves "aware" who couldn't find Gaza on a world map has to be over 50%.

"social media"....
* Enough said. Right, "social media". Meaning anything and everything from obvious blatant lies to the complete truth and A LOT in-between.

"Biden’s handling of Gaza was among the bigger issues for younger voters"
* I don't doubt that. Nice that people care about Gaza (despite not being able to find it on a map) but kind of a sad statement. Isn't it? Or maybe it's a happy statement in that people don't give a fuck about things that can (and probably should?) concern them more. - OOPS! Now I read "the biggest concern by a good margin for younger voters was their perception of Biden on the economy".
Hmmmm. I'm wondering what their perception is. The Shirley perception? or the Fox Business Report majority of American's perception?
https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/nea ... asping-air

as for the Palestinian "government," hasn't Israel put effort into destabilizing the Palestinian leadership so they do struggle to govern, particularly in a way that prevents Gaza and the West Bank from organizing together? How did the religious-right Hamas come to power subsequent to the more secular Arafat leadership? (genuinely asking)

Or heck, to try for a similar analogy again, how much do we blame Zelensky for the material conditions of the Ukrainian people?

I agree tho, the geographic understanding and general awareness of the average American likely ain't much.

and yea, social media is such a double-edged sword.

and yea, perception is reality when it comes to the economy. Shirley seems to point mostly to the successes of the stock market, and the stock market does not necessarily equate to the economy at large. I think the issue, as your link posits, is that a lot of Americans feel like they're struggling financially.

but again, prob for another thread.

[RainbowsandUnicorns]

NPR had a bit about it yesterday.

For older generations, they grew up in the wake of the Holocaust, and perceive Israel as some “underdog,” to use NPR’s term.

But for younger generations, they perceive Israel based more on their treatment of Palestinians.

The awareness of which has only grown with the increases in coverage afforded by social media - similar to the role social media played with bringing increased awareness to American police brutality and the George Floyd murder and the BLM movement.

The NPR piece was more specially about voter support for Biden among younger generations. It mentioned Biden’s handling of Gaza was among the bigger issues for younger voters, tho Biden’s handling of Gaza was among the bigger issues for younger voters…tho that’s for another thread.

"Their treatment of the Palestinians".....
* The Palestinian "government" treats their citizens like shit. Do any of those people take that in to account? Probably a small percentage but a huge percentage thinks the Israelis are 100% to blame for the current plight of the Palestinian citizens.

"The awareness".....
* The percentage of people who consider themselves "aware" who couldn't find Gaza on a world map has to be over 50%.

"social media"....
* Enough said. Right, "social media". Meaning anything and everything from obvious blatant lies to the complete truth and A LOT in-between.

"Biden’s handling of Gaza was among the bigger issues for younger voters"
* I don't doubt that. Nice that people care about Gaza (despite not being able to find it on a map) but kind of a sad statement. Isn't it? Or maybe it's a happy statement in that people don't give a fuck about things that can (and probably should?) concern them more. - OOPS! Now I read "the biggest concern by a good margin for younger voters was their perception of Biden on the economy".
Hmmmm. I'm wondering what their perception is. The Shirley perception? or the Fox Business Report majority of American's perception?
https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/nea ... asping-air

as for the Palestinian "government," hasn't Israel put effort into destabilizing the Palestinian leadership so they do struggle to govern, particularly in a way that prevents Gaza and the West Bank from organizing together? How did the religious-right Hamas come to power subsequent to the more secular Arafat leadership? (genuinely asking)

Or heck, to try for a similar analogy again, how much do we blame Zelensky for the material conditions of the Ukrainian people?

I agree tho, the geographic understanding and general awareness of the average American likely ain't much.

and yea, social media is such a double-edged sword.

and yea, perception is reality when it comes to the economy. Shirley seems to point mostly to the successes of the stock market, and the stock market does not necessarily equate to the economy at large. I think the issue, as your link posits, is that a lot of Americans feel like they're struggling financially.

but again, prob for another thread.

My answers to your questions in order....

* I am fully confident you know (or at least are more knowledgable) better than me, but if I am understanding your question correctly, I'll say yes.

* You're asking the wrong guy in that what little I have read and heard discussed on the subject, there are similar explanations but they do vary to different degrees. I'm not smart enough (actually - I'm dumb) to know what exactly was best for the future of Israel at that time and what power Israel had to prevent (or help establish?) the beginning/s of Hamas in Gaza but I have to assume Israel wasn't happy about it.
What I do know is that when Hamas was established, their mantra, or at least desire, was to call for the killing/murder of all Jews and the destruction of a Jewish Israel. Mazel Tov!

* "We"? I can't answer for "we" so I will speak for myself. Zelensky deserves SOME blame but to me, it is a much different situation. Big differences between being the initial aggressor and being the retaliator. Should "we" or I be going back to 2014? Or 2019? Or 2022? Or before 2014? When discussing how much we/I blame Zelensky for the current "material conditions of the Ukrainian people"?
My hope is when Zelensky came in to power he didn't consider himself the leader of a terrorist organization and was calling for the killing of all Christian ("Orthodox"?) Russians.
Plus, more importantly, I believe Zelensky cares about most Ukrainians and doesn't think of them as disposable pawns in the war against Russia.

In regards to Shirley, I really do appreciate Shirley's contributions and rah rah spirt. It is nice when people point out good things that are happening under a Biden Presidency. No matter if those "good things" are good for the minority (or majority) of Americans.
Of course sometimes I play the role of extreme contrarian in that regard. Just just me being me for the sake of discussion/s.
My guess is Shirley and I are a lot closer in regards to our feelings about Biden than we come off as having on this site. I don't dislike Biden nearly as much as I come off as disliking him and maybe I am wrong but I don't believe Shirley loves Biden as much as it may come off as.

[Sparko]

Zelensky is trying to defend his country. He wasn't there in 2014 when the invasion began. Unless you think he dressed Ukraine up in a short skirt and had it coming.

[KUTradition]

i love false equivalencies

[jfish26]

Zelensky is trying to defend his country. He wasn't there in 2014 when the invasion began. Unless you think he dressed Ukraine up in a short skirt and had it coming.

Also, I know this happened six thousand years ago at this point, but: Zelensky was also the victim of an attempted extortion attempt by our then-President, who (for personal gain) tried to take direct advantage of Ukraine’s relative weakness in comparison to the invader in question.

[TDub]

Russia so desperate for munitions they're asking North Korea for supplies? Or what's goin on there? Russia, China, NK dancing,.....US in Electoral turmoil. Setting up to be a banger of a year.

[KUTradition]

Russia so desperate for munitions they're asking North Korea for supplies? Or what's goin on there? Russia, China, NK dancing,.....US in Electoral turmoil. Setting up to be a banger of a year.

i’m sure nk soldiers deliberately crossing into sk multiple times recently is just a coincidence

but hey, what could be so bad about those players coming together…

[RainbowsandUnicorns]

This is starting to get good. I mean bad. I mean.......

Israel warns of prospect of ‘all-out war’ after Hezbollah publishes video of military, civilian sites.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/18/middleea ... index.html

“We are getting very close to the moment of deciding to change the rules of the game against Hezbollah and Lebanon,” Israeli Foreign Minister Israel Katz said in a statement on X. “In an all-out war, Hezbollah will be destroyed, and Lebanon severely beaten,”

In his response, Katz also underlined the global repercussions of any potential attack on Haifa. “(Hezbollah’s secretary-general Hassan) Nasrallah is bragging today that he photographed the ports of Haifa, which are operated by huge international companies from China and India, and threatening to damage them,” he said.

[KUTradition]

hamas, hezbollah, the muslim brotherhood…

all different flavors of, at their hearts, the same twisted and dangerous, extreme ideology

imo, Israel (and Israeli Jews by extension) will never truly be safe while those entities have any kind of power

[RainbowsandUnicorns]

hamas, hezbollah, the muslim brotherhood…

all different flavors of, at their hearts, the same twisted and dangerous, extreme ideology

imo, Israel (and Israeli Jews by extension) will never truly be safe while those entities have any kind of power

True. When there are terrorist/militant groups that have an end goal of creating your demise that are surrounding you, and have the support of other countries who would like to see you no longer exist, you're pretty much fucked. Problem is, those groups aren't going anywhere soon. I am convinced they will exist (maybe different facets but still terrorist/militant groups) until and beyond the end of Israel's existence.

As I have mentioned, I have friends and family members in different parts of Israel. The North is a lot more fucked that the south - right now - and in the foreseeable future.
My simple way of looking at things is, Israel better kiss a lot of Jordanian ass - or it's game over for Israel?

On a related note. It's fucking ridiculous to me that Israel and the USA (Bibi and Uncle Joe) are in a pissing match. Of course I place more blame on Bibi, and I am sure to many if not most people he comes off as being an ungrateful s.o.b., but this helps play in to the hands of the "evil doers" - and they have to be laughing their balls off.

https://www.axios.com/2024/06/19/netany ... an-meeting

[Sparko]

hamas, hezbollah, the muslim brotherhood…

all different flavors of, at their hearts, the same twisted and dangerous, extreme ideology

imo, Israel (and Israeli Jews by extension) will never truly be safe while those entities have any kind of power

And that power comes from Iran and Russia. The Saudis were about to come to reconciliation with Israel.

[Shirley]

hamas, hezbollah, the muslim brotherhood…

all different flavors of, at their hearts, the same twisted and dangerous, extreme ideology

imo, Israel (and Israeli Jews by extension) will never truly be safe while those entities have any kind of power

True. When there are terrorist/militant groups that have an end goal of creating your demise that are surrounding you, and have the support of other countries who would like to see you no longer exist, you're pretty much fucked. Problem is, those groups aren't going anywhere soon. I am convinced they will exist (maybe different facets but still terrorist/militant groups) until and beyond the end of Israel's existence.

As I have mentioned, I have friends and family members in different parts of Israel. The North is a lot more fucked that the south - right now - and in the foreseeable future.
My simple way of looking at things is, Israel better kiss a lot of Jordanian ass - or it's game over for Israel?

On a related note. It's fucking ridiculous to me that Israel and the USA (Bibi and Uncle Joe) are in a pissing match. Of course I place more blame on Bibi, and I am sure to many if not most people he comes off as being an ungrateful s.o.b., but this helps play in to the hands of the "evil doers" - and they have to be laughing their balls off.

https://www.axios.com/2024/06/19/netany ... an-meeting

Really Bibi, you feel free to shit on one Democratic president after another? Obama, and now Biden? Looks to me like Netanyahu doesn't know his place. Like it or not, Israel is dependent on the US. Pro tip, Bibi, you're not Israel, you're a politician up to your ass in legal consequences if you don't stay in office, and the surest was to do that is for you to prolong the war.

I wish Biden would get sick enough of Netanyahu's shit to subtly let Israel know that our support will be less robust as long as Bibi stays in office. Biden should slow walk our largesse until Israel is forced to call for new elections and make it known, just like Bibi regularly makes it known here that he prefers Trump/Republicans, that Bibi is a problem, and let Israeli's decide what/who they prefer.

My suspicion is that the guy who was supporting Hamas secretly because he wanted to keep the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank on its hind foot, took his eye off the ball, and allowed the massacre and taking of Israeli hostages on Oct 7th, 2023, won't fare so well in a popular election if the continued support of the US at its current level is on the line. And if not, at least Israeli's got the chance to make that choice.

[ousdahl]

WASHINGTON (AP) — The Biden administration on Tuesday approved a new $360 million weapons sale to Taiwan, sending the island hundreds of armed drones, missile equipment and related support material

[Overlander]

WASHINGTON (AP) — The Biden administration on Tuesday approved a new $360 million weapons sale to Taiwan, sending the island hundreds of armed drones, missile equipment and related support material

Revenue!

[RainbowsandUnicorns]

Obviously "propaganda" but...... Take a few minutes to take in ALL of what she says/said.

https://www.instagram.com/reels/C8cU_MSoVVF/

[ousdahl]

“If you are against the Jews having a state, you are against the Jews”

What if you’re more so against having states?

But I realize that thought is prob too progressive or whatever.

Either way, and I think I’ve asked this before, and I’ll try ask as non-snarky and sincerely as possible, but…

for the logic used to defend the argument for the state of Israel to hold; if the remedy for genocide and oppression of a people is for a people to have their own state, then why don’t we also give the United States back to indigenous Americans?

(Among others…)

[TDub]

not saying it's right or equal....but the native lands are sovereign nations within our nation.





I already regret having said anything at all

[dolomite]

I would like to know the diff between “war” and “all out war”. Which is better?
Politicians like to throw out the terms.
(Might have to do with number of bullets/bombs or size of bombs)

[Sparko]

All out war is walking your dog to the park on 6 August 1945 and seeing a bright flash.and leaving a charcoal imprint where you briefly stood