Let’s have a war!

[KUTradition]

what’s ironic, at least to me, is that it sure seems like the U.S. and the int’l community as a whole absolutely have a moral imperative to protect sovereign nations and their civilians from invasion and occupation/annexation

[TDub]

what’s ironic, at least to me, is that it sure seems like the U.S. and the int’l community as a whole absolutely have a moral imperative to protect sovereign nations and their civilians from invasion and occupation/annexation

of course they do, but you're a rational individual capable of digesting available information and making logical deductions. 30 second tik toks don't allow for much analysis beyond the specific framing of the clip.

[Overlander]

Late to the party here, but this is pure awesomeness

[DeletedUser]

apparently in real life he must have some redeeming qualities but boy, on here, he is a worthless twat full of misplaced self importance hitched up to a wagon full of idiots claiming a non existent moral high ground. It's unfortunate and has to be, at least in some part, an act to feed either his own self righteousness or to somehow impress his hairy arm pitted dating app flings.

I think it's mostly for attention.

He seems to enjoy it.

[jfish26]

This line of inquiry is incredibly important (note that there is more text, particularly more historical support, than I've excerpted, because this bored isn't letting me drop in the whole thing), and the evidence that is available to us is overwhelming:

The "West's propaganda" that we should fear is coming from the right, and people blaming this war on anyone but Putin are both victims and vectors.

June 28, 2024

https://heathercoxrichardson.substack.c ... ne-28-2024

At least three times now, Trump has interfered with those negotiations by vowing that Russian president Vladimir Putin will release Gershkovich for him and him alone. He said it in last night’s CNN debacle, where he also made a big deal out of the idea that Putin will do it as a favor, without an exchange of money.

He said something else last night in his slurry of words that jumped out. Somewhere in his discussion of Putin’s invasion of eastern Ukraine in February 2022, Trump said: “Putin saw that, he said, you know what, I think we’re going to go in and maybe take my—this was his dream. I talked to him about it, his dream.”

[...]

According to the Republican-dominated Senate Intelligence Committee, Manafort’s partner and Russian operative Kilimnick wrote that "[a]ll that is required to start the process is a very minor 'wink' (or slight push) from D[onald] T[rump] saying 'he wants peace in Ukraine and Donbass back in Ukraine' and a decision to be a 'special representative' and manage this process." Following that, Kilimnik suggested that Manafort ‘could start the process and within 10 days visit Russia ([Yanukovych] guarantees your reception at the very top level, cutting through all the bullsh*t and getting down to business), Ukraine, and key EU capitals.’ The email also suggested that once then–Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko understood this ‘message’ from the United States, the process ‘will go very fast and DT could have peace in Ukraine basically within a few months after inauguration’” (p. 99).

According to the Senate Intelligence Committee, the men continued to work on what they called the “Mariupol Plan” at least until 2018.

In last night’s debate, Trump insisted that Putin never would have invaded Ukraine on his watch (although Putin in fact continued his 2014 assault during Trump’s term, and Trump tried to withhold support for Ukraine).

[...]

Last night, Trump claimed that the Ukrainians are losing the war and described how sad it was that their country is being destroyed (without mentioning that it is Putin’s unprovoked war that is doing that damage). He also significantly exaggerated how much money the U.S. has contributed to Ukraine’s defense.

That misrepresentation lines up with Putin’s offer of Friday, June 14, 2024, in a “peace proposal” to Ukraine: Ukraine would give up Donetsk, Luhansk, Zaporizhzhia, and Kherson, including far more territory than Putin’s troops occupy, in exchange for a ceasefire. Putin said, “If Kyiv and the Western capitals refuse it, as before, then in the end, that’s their…political and moral responsibility for the continuation of bloodshed.” He also demanded an end to all sanctions and that Ukraine abandon its plan to join the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO). (Ukraine president Volodymyr Zelensky rejected the plan and noted that there is no reason to think Putin will stop his land grab once his forces regroup.)

So when Trump last night said about the 2022 invasion, “Putin saw that, he said, you know what, I think we’re going to go in and maybe take my—this was his dream. I talked to him about it, his dream,” it sounded as if he had been in on the Mariupol Plan. And when he talked about how the war needed to end, especially in light of Putin’s recent “peace” plan, it sounded as if perhaps he still is.

And he promised, yet again, that he and he alone could get Gershkovich released.

[KUTradition]

another sad irony…the apparent tolerance of unquestionably imperial actions by someone who denounces global imperialism at nearly every opportunity

[ousdahl]

Wait, who exactly is/are exhibiting “tolerance of unquestionably imperial actions?”

[jfish26]

The victims/vectors of Putin’s disinformation. Of which you are one.

[twocoach]

it’s sad

at this point, i’ve got zero desire to read any “source” he digs up (and i doubt i’m alone)

bro you just admitted so many of your views here depend on willful ignorance.

My sources are very often the same as yours, including in this very instance.

Nah, he just admitted that he is sick of having the same conversation with you over and over and over.

[DeletedUser]

Might as well keep the streak going. Another day, another facepalm.

[twocoach]

This entire thread should just be jettisoned into the sun.

[jfish26]

This line of inquiry is incredibly important (note that there is more text, particularly more historical support, than I've excerpted, because this bored isn't letting me drop in the whole thing), and the evidence that is available to us is overwhelming:

The "West's propaganda" that we should fear is coming from the right, and people blaming this war on anyone but Putin are both victims and vectors.

June 28, 2024

https://heathercoxrichardson.substack.c ... ne-28-2024

At least three times now, Trump has interfered with those negotiations by vowing that Russian president Vladimir Putin will release Gershkovich for him and him alone. He said it in last night’s CNN debacle, where he also made a big deal out of the idea that Putin will do it as a favor, without an exchange of money.

He said something else last night in his slurry of words that jumped out. Somewhere in his discussion of Putin’s invasion of eastern Ukraine in February 2022, Trump said: “Putin saw that, he said, you know what, I think we’re going to go in and maybe take my—this was his dream. I talked to him about it, his dream.”

[...]

According to the Republican-dominated Senate Intelligence Committee, Manafort’s partner and Russian operative Kilimnick wrote that "[a]ll that is required to start the process is a very minor 'wink' (or slight push) from D[onald] T[rump] saying 'he wants peace in Ukraine and Donbass back in Ukraine' and a decision to be a 'special representative' and manage this process." Following that, Kilimnik suggested that Manafort ‘could start the process and within 10 days visit Russia ([Yanukovych] guarantees your reception at the very top level, cutting through all the bullsh*t and getting down to business), Ukraine, and key EU capitals.’ The email also suggested that once then–Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko understood this ‘message’ from the United States, the process ‘will go very fast and DT could have peace in Ukraine basically within a few months after inauguration’” (p. 99).

According to the Senate Intelligence Committee, the men continued to work on what they called the “Mariupol Plan” at least until 2018.

In last night’s debate, Trump insisted that Putin never would have invaded Ukraine on his watch (although Putin in fact continued his 2014 assault during Trump’s term, and Trump tried to withhold support for Ukraine).

[...]

Last night, Trump claimed that the Ukrainians are losing the war and described how sad it was that their country is being destroyed (without mentioning that it is Putin’s unprovoked war that is doing that damage). He also significantly exaggerated how much money the U.S. has contributed to Ukraine’s defense.

That misrepresentation lines up with Putin’s offer of Friday, June 14, 2024, in a “peace proposal” to Ukraine: Ukraine would give up Donetsk, Luhansk, Zaporizhzhia, and Kherson, including far more territory than Putin’s troops occupy, in exchange for a ceasefire. Putin said, “If Kyiv and the Western capitals refuse it, as before, then in the end, that’s their…political and moral responsibility for the continuation of bloodshed.” He also demanded an end to all sanctions and that Ukraine abandon its plan to join the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO). (Ukraine president Volodymyr Zelensky rejected the plan and noted that there is no reason to think Putin will stop his land grab once his forces regroup.)

So when Trump last night said about the 2022 invasion, “Putin saw that, he said, you know what, I think we’re going to go in and maybe take my—this was his dream. I talked to him about it, his dream,” it sounded as if he had been in on the Mariupol Plan. And when he talked about how the war needed to end, especially in light of Putin’s recent “peace” plan, it sounded as if perhaps he still is.

And he promised, yet again, that he and he alone could get Gershkovich released.

All of this takes on a frightening degree of urgency when juxtaposed with this morning’s “President as king” - or, topically, President as emperor - holding by the Supreme Court.

To be perfectly clear, a President may now - if he holds the courts - exercise official powers for corrupt and antidemocratic ends so long as he rubber stamps OFFICIAL ACT on whatever he does.

[ousdahl]

Yea, maybe we are rehashing so much of the same old.

Maybe it’s time just sit back and wait til we can discuss this more in hindsight.

[jfish26]

Do whatever you want.

If anything, today's Court ruling brings us MUCH closer than we were yesterday to living under an imperialist, authoritarian system of government - a Putinist/Trumpist system of government - and so I will continue to pay very close attention to what that sort of system of government chooses to do, at this time that our own system of government is on the ballot.

And I have a feeling I know where you are going next. Whatever our system of government's past sins, I personally do not feel that things will be BETTER if we choose to be WORSE.

[KUTradition]

in essence, this is what q has wanted all along…a new world order led by china and russia

maybe it’ll be better, right? FAFO

[jfish26]

in essence, this is what q has wanted all along…a new world order led by china and russia

maybe it’ll be better, right? FAFO

Riding good vibes all the way to New Vladivostok.

[ousdahl]

I mean, in the context of this thread…doing whatever I want would be to discuss things like adults here, without name calling or personal attacks or putting words in each other’s mouths - and doing so in real time, rather than acknowledging bigger picture issues only in hindsight, but making it taboo to do so in real time.

But, on that whole putting words in one another’s mouths…boy, where’d you guys come up with the last 3 posts?!

I don’t want Russia, nor China, to lead a new world order. Far from it! I admit I’m at least intrigued by anti-imperial ideology. But anti-imperial ideology doesn’t mean you wanna substitute one empire for another.

As for “living under an imperialist, authoritarian system of government,” well, what’s your feeling on where I’m going next with that one?

[KUTradition]

There is a description for posters like you: Attention Whore.

how did i miss this one?

[TDub]

I mean, in the context of this thread…doing whatever I want would be to discuss things like adults here, without name calling or personal attacks or putting words in each other’s mouths - and doing so in real time, rather than acknowledging bigger picture issues only in hindsight, but making it taboo to do so in real time.

But, on that whole putting words in one another’s mouths…boy, where’d you guys come up with the last 3 posts?!

I don’t want Russia, nor China, to lead a new world order. Far from it! I admit I’m at least intrigued by anti-imperial ideology. But anti-imperial ideology doesn’t mean you wanna substitute one empire for another.

As for “living under an imperialist, authoritarian system of government,” well, what’s your feeling on where I’m going next with that one?

holy balls....self awareness level of 0

[ousdahl]

weren't you the dood who also just called me a twat?