Uncle Joe

[jfish26]

Bro you’re the one who views all this thru sone partisan lens.

This of course is nonsense - and right down the MAGA false equivalency messaging fairway to stamp a partisan label on being pro-democracy, pro-individual-rights and pro-science. As if it's normal course to be on the "other" side of those issues - it's fucking not, the Rs have gone singularly insane.

[Sparko]

One theory I heard Julia Ioffe, (What a fox!) advance for why Putin would allow Biden to accomplish this exchange rather than waiting and letting Trump pull it off, is that Putin got pissed off at Trump for repeatedly making it sound as if Putin would bend to Trump's will so readily. "Oh yeah, Donald?"

Sounds plausible, to me.

Based solely on the reporting to date, I suspect the answer is different - I think Putin knew that the US didn't have what Putin wanted, and that Trump would not be able to broker the deal with the other heads-of-state that were involved.

There is some truth there, but there is also an absolute crap show in Russia. This type of thing would only happen if he needed something else. The emergency is Russia itself.

[jfish26]

One theory I heard Julia Ioffe, (What a fox!) advance for why Putin would allow Biden to accomplish this exchange rather than waiting and letting Trump pull it off, is that Putin got pissed off at Trump for repeatedly making it sound as if Putin would bend to Trump's will so readily. "Oh yeah, Donald?"

Sounds plausible, to me.

Based solely on the reporting to date, I suspect the answer is different - I think Putin knew that the US didn't have what Putin wanted, and that Trump would not be able to broker the deal with the other heads-of-state that were involved.

There is some truth there, but there is also an absolute crap show in Russia. This type of thing would only happen if he needed something else. The emergency is Russia itself.

The fact that talks were advanced enough that the last moving pieces fell into place a couple weeks ago (before Biden dropped out) tells me that it's only coincidental that this is happening at a time when the election odds appear to be changing.

[KUTradition]

Based solely on the reporting to date, I suspect the answer is different - I think Putin knew that the US didn't have what Putin wanted, and that Trump would not be able to broker the deal with the other heads-of-state that were involved.

There is some truth there, but there is also an absolute crap show in Russia. This type of thing would only happen if he needed something else. The emergency is Russia itself.

The fact that talks were advanced enough that the last moving pieces fell into place a couple weeks ago (before Biden dropped out) tells me that it's only coincidental that this is happening at a time when the election odds appear to be changing.

yes

this didn’t get put together overnight

[Shirley]

Bro you’re the one who views all this thru sone partisan lens.

This of course is nonsense - and right down the MAGA false equivalency messaging fairway to stamp a partisan label on being pro-democracy, pro-individual-rights and pro-science. As if it's normal course to be on the "other" side of those issues - it's fucking not, the Rs have gone singularly insane.

The existentialist Jean-Paul Sartre thought that human beings live in anguish. Not because life is terrible. But rather because, we’re ‘condemned to be free’. We're ‘thrown’ into existence, become aware of ourselves, and have to make choices. Even deciding not to choose is a choice. According to Sartre, every choice reveals what we think a human being should be.

[japhy]

Bro you’re the one who views all this thru sone partisan lens.

This of course is nonsense - and right down the MAGA false equivalency messaging fairway to stamp a partisan label on being pro-democracy, pro-individual-rights and pro-science. As if it's normal course to be on the "other" side of those issues - it's fucking not, the Rs have gone singularly insane.

The existentialist Jean-Paul Sartre thought that human beings live in anguish. Not because life is terrible. But rather because, we’re ‘condemned to be free’. We're ‘thrown’ into existence, become aware of ourselves, and have to make choices. Even deciding not to choose is a choice. According to Sartre, every choice reveals what we think a human being should be.

Isn't he one of those communist mutherfuckers who mocked the Last Supper?

[TDub]

There is some truth there, but there is also an absolute crap show in Russia. This type of thing would only happen if he needed something else. The emergency is Russia itself.

The fact that talks were advanced enough that the last moving pieces fell into place a couple weeks ago (before Biden dropped out) tells me that it's only coincidental that this is happening at a time when the election odds appear to be changing.

yes

this didn’t get put together overnight

I believe I read that the deal was finalized the day before Joe dropped out. Though, of course, I can't find the source for that information now.

[Shirley]

There is some truth there, but there is also an absolute crap show in Russia. This type of thing would only happen if he needed something else. The emergency is Russia itself.

The fact that talks were advanced enough that the last moving pieces fell into place a couple weeks ago (before Biden dropped out) tells me that it's only coincidental that this is happening at a time when the election odds appear to be changing.

yes

this didn’t get put together overnight

I agree election odds are merely coincidental, and that Trump couldn't have brought all the parties together. One talking head characterized it as the difference between how the Biden Admin. treats their allies, and a "What have you done for me lately?" loan shark, who treats you like your payment is late.

But, it's surprising to me that Putin (apparently) wanted to repatriate the assassin being held in Germany so badly that he was willing to risk doing damage to Trump's election chances, to another 4-year term. Four years of a weakling like Trump at the head of the government of his arch nemesis. How could he pass that up? And especially since the SCOTUS has opened the fascism spigots so widely.

[jfish26]

The fact that talks were advanced enough that the last moving pieces fell into place a couple weeks ago (before Biden dropped out) tells me that it's only coincidental that this is happening at a time when the election odds appear to be changing.

yes

this didn’t get put together overnight

I agree election odds are merely coincidental, and that Trump couldn't have brought all the parties together. One talking head characterized it as the difference between how the Biden Admin. treats their allies, and a "What have you done for me lately?" loan shark, who treats you like your payment is late.

But, it's surprising to me that Putin (apparently) wanted to repatriate the assassin being held in Germany so badly that he was willing to risk doing damage to Trump's election chances, to another 4-year term. Four years of a weakling like Trump at the head of the government of his arch nemesis. How could he pass that up? And especially since the SCOTUS has opened the fascism spigots so widely.

I mean, no one really has a very long leash for optimism anymore, but it’s at least possible that Putin has determined that Russia is too weak (domestically and otherwise) to continue in Ukraine, and is looking to burnish his negotiating credibility.

[Shirley]

yes

this didn’t get put together overnight

I agree election odds are merely coincidental, and that Trump couldn't have brought all the parties together. One talking head characterized it as the difference between how the Biden Admin. treats their allies, and a "What have you done for me lately?" loan shark, who treats you like your payment is late.

But, it's surprising to me that Putin (apparently) wanted to repatriate the assassin being held in Germany so badly that he was willing to risk doing damage to Trump's election chances, to another 4-year term. Four years of a weakling like Trump at the head of the government of his arch nemesis. How could he pass that up? And especially since the SCOTUS has opened the fascism spigots so widely.

I mean, no one really has a very long leash for optimism anymore, but it’s at least possible that Putin has determined that Russia is too weak (domestically and otherwise) to continue in Ukraine, and is looking to burnish his negotiating credibility.

I hadn't thought of that, but let's hope so.

[KUTradition]

i wouldn’t be shocked in the slightest if there’s also a bit of not wanting Harris to score such a “win”

[ousdahl]

The comprehensive, categorical debasement of so many intelligent people is breathtaking when you zoom out. Think about some of the Trumpers you know, and imagine their reaction if you'd told them in 2014 what they'd be supporting ten years later.

Mind boggling, indeed.

But I’m concerned the phenomenon may be hardly limited to Trumpers.

Next stop, Bothsidesville!

Ok, I’ll give you that I guess, as my next comment was on partisanship.

And I dunno how “pro-democracy” it really is to so vocally advocate for compulsory voting for just one party.

As for “what they’d be supporting ten years later” tho, and to try and make this comment more on point with the thread, I’m concerned that in ten years there’s gonna be an awful lot of otherwise-decent Americans who look us in the eye and feed us the bold-faced lie that they were opposed all along to Uncle Joe’s policies to so robustly arm so many right-wing ethno-militants across the world.

[KUTradition]

is q dumb?

the other side is actively tearing down democracy, and has told us they plan to continue

[TDub]

depends on what your definition of "is" is

[Sparko]

yes

this didn’t get put together overnight

I agree election odds are merely coincidental, and that Trump couldn't have brought all the parties together. One talking head characterized it as the difference between how the Biden Admin. treats their allies, and a "What have you done for me lately?" loan shark, who treats you like your payment is late.

But, it's surprising to me that Putin (apparently) wanted to repatriate the assassin being held in Germany so badly that he was willing to risk doing damage to Trump's election chances, to another 4-year term. Four years of a weakling like Trump at the head of the government of his arch nemesis. How could he pass that up? And especially since the SCOTUS has opened the fascism spigots so widely.

I mean, no one really has a very long leash for optimism anymore, but it’s at least possible that Putin has determined that Russia is too weak (domestically and otherwise) to continue in Ukraine, and is looking to burnish his negotiating credibility.

That remains my take. He controlled events up to the end and could have said nyet.

[jfish26]

I agree election odds are merely coincidental, and that Trump couldn't have brought all the parties together. One talking head characterized it as the difference between how the Biden Admin. treats their allies, and a "What have you done for me lately?" loan shark, who treats you like your payment is late.

But, it's surprising to me that Putin (apparently) wanted to repatriate the assassin being held in Germany so badly that he was willing to risk doing damage to Trump's election chances, to another 4-year term. Four years of a weakling like Trump at the head of the government of his arch nemesis. How could he pass that up? And especially since the SCOTUS has opened the fascism spigots so widely.

I mean, no one really has a very long leash for optimism anymore, but it’s at least possible that Putin has determined that Russia is too weak (domestically and otherwise) to continue in Ukraine, and is looking to burnish his negotiating credibility.

That remains my take. He controlled events up to the end and could have said nyet.

I thought the same thing. If he DIDN’T want to give the Biden/Harris administration (and thus the Harris candidacy) the win, he could have said nyet.

[ousdahl]

It’s kinda gross to think Putin has any “negotiating credibility”

Or for that matter, credibility of any sort at all

[TDub]

he gets it from people with viewpoints akin to yours

[MICHHAWK]

pres biden is lame duck. there is nothing lamer than a lame duck president.

[KUTradition]

pres biden is lame duck. there is nothing lamer than a lame duck president.

i can think of at least one thing that’s more lame