Fox and Friends

[ousdahl]

I dunno if things like being hesitant about issues like "Build The Wall" is "fringe left," or, just where Kamala and dems were four years ago, and/or up until this slant to the right in an apparent attempt to appeal toward the middle.

But I dunno if actual policies really matter that much in U.S. elections.

[ousdahl]

Until they find a way to transition to it without collapsing the medical sector and/or economy, I am fine with here change in stance on Medicare for all.

Curious about this. Could you please elaborate?

Not necessarily disagreeing, just wanna understand better.

[KUTradition]

It is true that Harris' plan includes elements that are along the lines of what you describe (and I would note that the whole point of a serious campaign is to win, which requires compromise and appealing outside your base).

yea.

I'm still left wondering whether the best move, though, is to compromise and make appeals outside your base, but to the right.

Is this really gonna pick up many otherwise-right-leaning votes for her? Or even many on-the-fence-undecided-moderate-centrist sorts of votes?

and part of that wonder is also wondering if taking any more progressive stances might attract, or better attract, votes outside Harris's base but to the left.

I absolutely do think that appealing toward the middle is a better strategy than appealing toward the fringe left. And I do not think it's a close call.

there is absolutely more to gain by moving more centrist, than there would be moving more left…to think otherwise is just silly

not only does it likely garner a bigger block of support to, as you say, actually win the election, but as long as it isn’t toothless it also builds relationships that would be essential for other legislation in the future

seems to me that this is exactly how any serious legislation gets passed…compromise

[twocoach]

when campaigning in 2020, Harris called for things like, closing immigrant detention centers.

now, she's pushing a border policy that's tougher and Trumpier and among those things that "Pubs actually agree with."

When did Harris release her border policy statement? Feel free to provide me a link as I seemed to have missed that.

[twocoach]

when campaigning in 2020, Harris called for things like, closing immigrant detention centers.

now, she's pushing a border policy that's tougher and Trumpier and among those things that "Pubs actually agree with."

I think this sort of glosses over some important things.

It is true that Harris' plan includes elements that are along the lines of what you describe (and I would note that the whole point of a serious campaign is to win, which requires compromise and appealing outside your base).

However, it is also true that Harris' plan includes MUCH more robust and varied paths to lawful immigration.

In other words, one might find the stick part of their plans substantially equally gross.

But only one of their plans even includes carrots.

Aren't you just assuming that her plan is to continue whatever Biden is doing?

[jfish26]

I dunno if things like being hesitant about issues like "Build The Wall" is "fringe left," or, just where Kamala and dems were four years ago, and/or up until this slant to the right in an apparent attempt to appeal toward the middle.

But I dunno if actual policies really matter that much in U.S. elections.

How about, show us an example of Harris supporting Trump's wall plan, and let's talk about it with that in hand.

[ousdahl]

when campaigning in 2020, Harris called for things like, closing immigrant detention centers.

now, she's pushing a border policy that's tougher and Trumpier and among those things that "Pubs actually agree with."

When did Harris release her border policy statement? Feel free to provide me a link as I seemed to have missed that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2F9qGxTKcU

if you remove the name, and consider just the substance, pretty sure this would be assumed to be a right-leaning candidate's messaging in any election besides this one.

I mean, didn't we already have a candidate labeling immigrants as a bunch of drug dealers and thugs?

[twocoach]

when campaigning in 2020, Harris called for things like, closing immigrant detention centers.

now, she's pushing a border policy that's tougher and Trumpier and among those things that "Pubs actually agree with."

You can do both of those things, they aren't mutually exclusive. Maybe these detention facilities are a train wreck, cost too much money and are not helping anything, I don't know. Maybe we need to review the entire fucked up system and make a bunch of adjustments (we do). It will be nearly impossible while the GOP has a majority in either house of Congress (you know, the place where actual laws get made) as they are not going to pass anything if Harris gets elected. If you think they drug their feet while Obama and Biden were President, it will be 1000x worse if they keep a majority and Harris gets elected.

[jfish26]

when campaigning in 2020, Harris called for things like, closing immigrant detention centers.

now, she's pushing a border policy that's tougher and Trumpier and among those things that "Pubs actually agree with."

I think this sort of glosses over some important things.

It is true that Harris' plan includes elements that are along the lines of what you describe (and I would note that the whole point of a serious campaign is to win, which requires compromise and appealing outside your base).

However, it is also true that Harris' plan includes MUCH more robust and varied paths to lawful immigration.

In other words, one might find the stick part of their plans substantially equally gross.

But only one of their plans even includes carrots.

Aren't you just assuming that her plan is to continue whatever Biden is doing?

I am assuming that she will proceed, directionally, along the lines of the Biden-Harris administration's plans. I am certain that her formal platform will include MUCH more robust and varied paths to lawful immigration, than her opponent's.

[twocoach]

when campaigning in 2020, Harris called for things like, closing immigrant detention centers.

now, she's pushing a border policy that's tougher and Trumpier and among those things that "Pubs actually agree with."

When did Harris release her border policy statement? Feel free to provide me a link as I seemed to have missed that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2F9qGxTKcU

if you remove the name, and consider just the substance, pretty sure this would be assumed to be a right-leaning candidate's messaging in any election besides this one.

I mean, didn't we already have a candidate labeling immigrants as a bunch of drug dealers and thugs?

OMG, did you seriously just give me a 30 second campaign ad whose grand total of statements on immigration are that she'll hire more Border agents and crack down on fentanyl as "Harris's border policy"?!?

And if you read into that "a candidate labeling immigrants as a bunch of drug dealers and thugs" then you're just choosing to project that into the discussion as it did not exist whatsoever in that ad. She was a prosecutor who sent actual cartel gang members to prison. That is in no way whatsoever labeling all immigrants as "a bunch of drug dealers and thugs". You're being completely disingenuous. Stop trying to shoehorn your bad take into things.

[jfish26]

when campaigning in 2020, Harris called for things like, closing immigrant detention centers.

now, she's pushing a border policy that's tougher and Trumpier and among those things that "Pubs actually agree with."

When did Harris release her border policy statement? Feel free to provide me a link as I seemed to have missed that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2F9qGxTKcU

if you remove the name, and consider just the substance, pretty sure this would be assumed to be a right-leaning candidate's messaging in any election besides this one.

I mean, didn't we already have a candidate labeling immigrants as a bunch of drug dealers and thugs?

This is a TV ad.

[jfish26]

When did Harris release her border policy statement? Feel free to provide me a link as I seemed to have missed that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2F9qGxTKcU

if you remove the name, and consider just the substance, pretty sure this would be assumed to be a right-leaning candidate's messaging in any election besides this one.

I mean, didn't we already have a candidate labeling immigrants as a bunch of drug dealers and thugs?

OMG, did you seriously just give me a 30 second campaign ad whose grand total of statements on immigration are that she'll hire more Border agents and crack down on fentanyl as "Harris's border policy"?!?

Hey, he DID say, "I dunno if actual policies really matter that much in U.S. elections."

[ousdahl]

...yes, I did? (just post a link to a TV ad)

FWIW I also went to her campaign website, but that doesn't seem to offer anything toward her plan about immigration.

For that matter, it doesn't list much toward any sort of affirmative platform...at all?

plenty of opportunities to donate to her tho! a $47 button, how cute is that!

https://kamalaharris.com

[ousdahl]

I dunno if things like being hesitant about issues like "Build The Wall" is "fringe left," or, just where Kamala and dems were four years ago, and/or up until this slant to the right in an apparent attempt to appeal toward the middle.

But I dunno if actual policies really matter that much in U.S. elections.

How about, show us an example of Harris supporting Trump's wall plan, and let's talk about it with that in hand.

well, again, while her campaign website provides no specific info about the "tougher" border stance she's espousing on the campaign trail, that TV ad in question contains multiple images of what appears to be...walls?

[ousdahl]

When did Harris release her border policy statement? Feel free to provide me a link as I seemed to have missed that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2F9qGxTKcU

if you remove the name, and consider just the substance, pretty sure this would be assumed to be a right-leaning candidate's messaging in any election besides this one.

I mean, didn't we already have a candidate labeling immigrants as a bunch of drug dealers and thugs?

OMG, did you seriously just give me a 30 second campaign ad whose grand total of statements on immigration are that she'll hire more Border agents and crack down on fentanyl as "Harris's border policy"?!?

And if you read into that "a candidate labeling immigrants as a bunch of drug dealers and thugs" then you're just choosing to project that into the discussion as it did not exist whatsoever in that ad. She was a prosecutor who sent actual cartel gang members to prison. That is in no way whatsoever labeling all immigrants as "a bunch of drug dealers and thugs". You're being completely disingenuous. Stop trying to shoehorn your bad take into things.

bro but I'm just not sure the bad take here is mine.

While it mentions drug dealers and gang members in the context of immigrants at the border, does it do anything - anything at all - to humanize immigrants? Any concern for asylum-seekers? Anything about refugees? Anything, even, about how America is a nation of immigrants, and Kamala Harris herself is the child of immigrants?

I think, with the right messaging, there may be some ground to gain among progressives and immigrant/sympathetic to immigrant voters. Maybe even more so than any moderates who might be swayed by the rhetoric of getting "tougher" on immigrants.

Or - and speaking of bad takes - maybe I'm wrong, and anything less than the "tougher" rhetoric is actually just fringe left shit.

[zsn]

Until they find a way to transition to it without collapsing the medical sector and/or economy, I am fine with here change in stance on Medicare for all.

Curious about this. Could you please elaborate?

Not necessarily disagreeing, just wanna understand better.

I’m disagreeing. Why would “Medicare For All” - basically some form of current Medicare that’s available to anyone interested in buying into - collapse the medical system and/or the economy? What is stifling the medical system and the economy is the current abomination that is the employer-sponsored for-profit medical-insurance-complex.

Remember that’s what you (rhetorical) said about the ACA and it’s collapsed neither the medical system nor the economy.

[twocoach]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2F9qGxTKcU

if you remove the name, and consider just the substance, pretty sure this would be assumed to be a right-leaning candidate's messaging in any election besides this one.

I mean, didn't we already have a candidate labeling immigrants as a bunch of drug dealers and thugs?

OMG, did you seriously just give me a 30 second campaign ad whose grand total of statements on immigration are that she'll hire more Border agents and crack down on fentanyl as "Harris's border policy"?!?

And if you read into that "a candidate labeling immigrants as a bunch of drug dealers and thugs" then you're just choosing to project that into the discussion as it did not exist whatsoever in that ad. She was a prosecutor who sent actual cartel gang members to prison. That is in no way whatsoever labeling all immigrants as "a bunch of drug dealers and thugs". You're being completely disingenuous. Stop trying to shoehorn your bad take into things.

bro but I'm just not sure the bad take here is mine.

While it mentions drug dealers and gang members in the context of immigrants at the border, does it do anything - anything at all - to humanize immigrants? Any concern for asylum-seekers? Anything about refugees? Anything, even, about how America is a nation of immigrants, and Kamala Harris herself is the child of immigrants?

I think, with the right messaging, there may be some ground to gain among progressives and immigrant/sympathetic to immigrant voters. Maybe even more so than any moderates who might be swayed by the rhetoric of getting "tougher" on immigrants.

Or - and speaking of bad takes - maybe I'm wrong, and anything less than the "tougher" rhetoric is actually just fringe left shit.

Or maybe you shouldn't try to define an entire platform based on a fucking 30 second ad?

[ousdahl]

What entire platform?

Don’t blame be cuz she’s shared little more on policy vision than a fucking 30 second ad, and some various other “tough” rhetoric in the campaign trail.

[KUTradition]

different thread; same nonsense

[jfish26]

What entire platform?

Don’t blame be cuz she’s shared little more on policy vision than a fucking 30 second ad, and some various other “tough” rhetoric in the campaign trail.

Parties have platforms. They are typically* adopted at their respective nominating conventions. The DNC has not yet occurred.

* https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/sites/d ... 136059.pdf