NBA 24/25

[pdub]

Harden's TO/per36 is very high but Westbrook has him beat.
Westbrook is 2nd all-time in both total turnovers and turnovers per 36.
Only George McGinnis has a very very slightly higher turnover per 36 and he has over 3000 fewer turnovers in his career than Westbrook.

[DeletedUser]

It'll be interesting to see how history treats guys like Westbrook and Harden.

Insane stats. But hasn't always resulted in team success.

[pdub]

"Cp3 has had a nice boost late in his career playing for Phoenix and GS. Which is why I said prime. I do not consider either of them to be in their prime now."

Chris Paul was 5th and 9th in MVP voting in the years he was on Phoenix.
So I'm guessing you think his prime is when he was on the Clippers?

Chris Paul on the Clippers - .665 - higher than his career win%.
Keep em coming illy.

( of note, this % is higher than a similar span - 6 years - of Westbrook's career when he was at his best/peak, 2014-2020 with the Thunder )

( and yes, CP3's Clippers had more playoff wins in that time span than Westbrook's Thunder )

[DeletedUser]

"Cp3 has had a nice boost late in his career playing for Phoenix and GS. Which is why I said prime. I do not consider either of them to be in their prime now."

Chris Paul was 5th and 9th in MVP voting in the years he was on Phoenix.
So I'm guessing you think his prime is when he was on the Clippers?

Chris Paul on the Clippers - .665 - higher than his career win%.
Keep em coming illy.

( of note, this % is higher than a similar span - 6 years - of Westbrook's career when he was at his best/peak, 2014-2020 with the Thunder )

( and yes, CP3's Clippers had more playoff wins in that time span than Westbrook's Thunder )

I didn't say Westbook had better winning %s than CP3. Just mentioned why I think CP3 is overrated.

I don't put any stock in what place he finished in MVP voting in Phoenix. Go look at the league those years. He wasn't even close to a top 5 player in the league in any season over the least decade.

He wouldn't make my first team NBA in any single season of his entire career.

[pdub]

"I do think CP3 defense is overrated. He was never a lockdown defender...
I can't make a compelling argument based on stats...
It sure just felt like...
I don't put any stock in..."

OK.
So I stand by a key word in the very first comment regarding this - 'ridiculous'.

viewtopic.php?p=412035#p412035

[DeletedUser]

Fair enough.

You don't have to agree. I do not like CP3. I think he's wildly overrated historically (aside from the "ridiculous" Westbrook debate).

[DeletedUser]

Ok, this is funny...

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C9lD6Rhp ... ZtZG5ud3R1

[pdub]

Gordon Hayward retires.
I think the Celtics woulda won a title a lot earlier had he not gotten that nasty injury at the very start of his time there.

[DeletedUser]

Just saw the Christmas day games. What a lineup.

Spurs at Knicks
Wolves at Mavs
76ers at Boston
Lakers at GS
Nuggets at Suns

[pdub]

Chiefs at 12/1 ET.
Boston at 4/5 ET.
Good luck fam - we'd better have all our presents opened before hand.

[DeletedUser]

Chiefs at 12/1 ET.
Boston at 4/5 ET.
Good luck fam - we'd better have all our presents opened before hand.

Is there usually NFL on Christmas Day?

[RainbowsandUnicorns]

Chiefs at 12/1 ET.
Boston at 4/5 ET.
Good luck fam - we'd better have all our presents opened before hand.

Is there usually NFL on Christmas Day?

On Wednesday. JUNK!

[pdub]

Chiefs at 12/1 ET.
Boston at 4/5 ET.
Good luck fam - we'd better have all our presents opened before hand.

Is there usually NFL on Christmas Day?

On Wednesday. JUNK!

On Netflix. JUNK!
Last season the Chiefs also played on Xmas and lost, at home, to the Raiders, on a Monday.
( also, my rents have Netflix, and I'll very likely be there for Xmas, otherwise I either wouldn't watch - as I don't have Netflix and sure as hell am not gonna get it for the game - or would find an illegal stream )

[jfish26]

I couldn't get past the headline here without stopping to throw up.

The Lakers Are Completely Squandering LeBron’s Final Act

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2024/8/15 ... mpics-2024

I mean:

[Throughout] the Olympics, as we watched a 39-year-old LeBron resemble the conundrum opponents still have no answer for, a dichotomy began to emerge. Hand in hand with his dominance and poise was a cruel reminder of what the final act of his NBA career could have been if not for an expert squandering of hope and possibility by the Los Angeles Lakers.

[...]

Thanks to a front office and ownership group that have spent half a decade simultaneously catering to and disregarding their franchise player in some spectacularly detrimental ways, championship goals have been replaced by hollow determination.

[...]

The shrewdest organizations know what they are. Delusion is replaced by harsh truths. They also know whom they have and map out myriad ways to accentuate their best players with mutually beneficial on-court relationships. The Lakers have repeatedly misjudged that last part and shown little understanding of where they stand. When change is urgent, they choose continuity. When continuity is key, they make identity-shifting alterations. To repeatedly screw this up—with LeBron (!), on the NBA’s most popular franchise (!!)—is malpractice.

[...]

It’s not a tragedy that LeBron stopped being relevant in championship conversations. What’s wrong is how his exit from the main stage happened. He’s somehow been able to avoid a hook from Father Time that should’ve come by now. Instead, the call is coming from inside his own house.

Next year, on the Lakers, he won’t have Curry or Durant by his side. But that doesn’t mean LeBron should have to settle for another bronze medal. Sadly, that’s all L.A. has allowed him to shoot for.

The closest we get to anything LIKE asking for ANY accountability for Bron himself is this soggy, apologetic nod:

There are moves to make. But the general overview here is a systemic faux pas. It’s also a shame. The last few years of LeBron’s career could’ve been an exclamation point on the greatest career ever seen. Instead, every individual achievement is neutralized by the franchise’s habitual shortcomings. Some of this is on the power he and his agency exude over L.A.’s personnel decisions, along with the surprising degree of apathy he’s shown in the face of perennial letdowns (this man really loves Southern California!). But a majority of the blame should be thrust onto a front office that has demonstrated narrow vision and little control.

What, in the fuck, are we talking about here? The franchise's "habitual shortcomings?"

Don't get me (a Lakers fan from childhood) wrong - yes, 100%, the Lakers consistently take a short-term view of things, betting on (not unreasonably) the city and organization's history and position in the zeitgeist to paper over messy cap details.

But Christ almighty, the player has habitual shortcomings of his own: he is a meddler extraordinaire. There is not a chance in the world that any material decision the Lakers have made during Bron's time there, was actually made against his will.

Totally get that the NBA is a player's league. But my god, the excusemaking here never ends.

[pdub]

I blame the Lakers for not getting the right team around LeBron more than LeBron.
A lot of posters here would do the reverse.

[DeletedUser]

I blame the Lakers for not getting the right team around LeBron more than LeBron.

Same.

[jfish26]

I blame the Lakers for not getting the right team around LeBron more than LeBron.
A lot of posters here would do the reverse.

Fine - but you also (not unreasonably!) are among the first to signal that if Pat really wants to optimize for 8 rings, then at some point there are some choices he can make. In fact, he's already making those choices.

Bron, who this year will cross $500mm in career salary earnings alone, has taken these salaries over his Lakers tenure:

$35.6mm
$37.4mm
$39.2mm
$41.1mm
$44.4mm
$47.6mm

[pdub]

I blame the Lakers for not getting the right team around LeBron more than LeBron.
A lot of posters here would do the reverse.

Fine - but you also (not unreasonably!) are among the first to signal that if Pat really wants to optimize for 8 rings, then at some point there are some choices he can make. In fact, he's already making those choices.

Bron, who this year will cross $500mm in career salary earnings alone, has taken these salaries over his Lakers tenure:

$35.6mm
$37.4mm
$39.2mm
$41.1mm
$44.4mm
$47.6mm

No doubt.
I still blame the Lakers MORE.
That does not mean I do not blame LeBron.

If Baltimore had snuck out the game vs the Chiefs last season, I would not have blamed Mahomes but management for deciding to just take a pass on dealing with the WR room. Chiefs won tho so good call on them I guess ( :/ )

[DeletedUser]

How little should he take though?

He's 14th highest paid for 2024 according to what I am seeing. He's still a top 5 player.

He was tied 3rd highest with Embiid and Jokic last year. 4th the year before that. 6th the year before that. 7th the year before that.

And when you see some of the guys ahead of him in some of those years you'd scratch your head. Westbrook. CP3. Etc.


He's been fairly franchise friendly salary wise relative to talent.

[jfish26]

How little should he take though?

He's 14th highest paid for 2024 according to what I am seeing. He's still a top 5 player.

He was tied 3rd highest with Embiid and Jokic last year. 4th the year before that. 6th the year before that. 7th the year before that.

And when you see some of the guys ahead of him in some of those years you'd scratch your head. Westbrook. CP3. Etc.


He's been fairly franchise friendly salary wise relative to talent.

There's no right answer to how much he should take. But while the relationship between his salary and his blameworthiness is not necessarily linear, absolutely I'd have MORE patience for letting him off the hook if he took 50% of market value, and MORE STILL if he took the vet minimum.

I am good with him optimizing for money.

I am good with him optimizing for wins.

I am good with him charting a middle ground.

But in my opinion he is AT LEAST equally (with the titular front office) responsible for his Lakers consistently being 1-3 pieces short (to say nothing of his responsibility for which pieces ARE there). And so, miss me with the framing of this story.