Indigenous People's Day

[JKLivin]

classic…don’t even know what you’re outraged about

do better; your obsession is showing

1.) Not outraged.
2.) You're not the only person who posted on this thread. Believe it or not, I'm not always responding to you.

[KUTradition]

you quoted me, liar

do better

[KUTradition]

outrage injected:

Where does your dad stand on the issue of holding people accountable for what other people did hundreds of years before they were born?

[KUTradition]

white victimhood at its finest

[JKLivin]

you quoted me, liar

do better

I wasn't quoting you about a book. I don't read every post in a thread. Sorry if that offends you.

[JKLivin]

outrage injected:

Where does your dad stand on the issue of holding people accountable for what other people did hundreds of years before they were born?

It wasn't outrage. It was an honest question in response to Shirley's hyperbolic statement.

You're really reaching. Take a breath.

[KUTradition]

jfc…it’s right there on the page

if you weren’t quoting me about the book, which was literally the subject of my post, then you were quite literally just trying to pick a victimhood fight

you’re broken…you’ve openly admitted to having anger issues, and your posts (just like in this thread), are continually laced with bigotry

seriously, do better

[JKLivin]

jfc…it’s right there on the page

if you weren’t quoting me about the book, which was literally the subject of my post, then you were quite literally just trying to pick a victimhood fight

you’re broken…you’ve openly admitted to having anger issues, and your posts (just like in this thread), are continually laced with bigotry

seriously, do better

I'm not angry. I'm trying to have a conversation. If you're not capable of doing the same, feel free to move along. From where I'm standing, it looks like you're just trying to pick a fight.

[KUTradition]

giggles

what conversation are you trying to have?

and with whom?

please be specific. you quoted me to interject a screed about “colonization”, which you then tried to morph into a discussion about reparations…which has very little to do with this thread or the discussions herein

you seem hell-bent on interjecting the white victimhood narrative, which is why i called it out

[KUTradition]

we should be celebrating and honoring native peoples and their heritage, not continuing the centuries-long cultural (and literal) genocide that has been visited upon them

their story, and history, is every bit as important as yours (or mine). calling their history a fiction, to me, is denigrating and inhumane

“we” should do better. “we” should expect and demand better

[JKLivin]

giggles

what conversation are you trying to have?

and with whom?

please be specific. you quoted me to interject a screed about “colonization”, which you then tried to morph into a discussion about reparations…which has very little to do with this thread or the discussions herein

you seem hell-bent on interjecting the white victimhood narrative, which is why i called it out

Like your buddy, you read a great deal into my posts that is unwarranted.

I objected to the use of the inflammatory term "colonization" because it is designed it elicit an emotional response. I'm not claiming victimhood. I'm not denying that these events happened. I'm suggesting that perhaps a measured discussion of a) what value there is in couching the events in emotionally-laden language and b) what is the end game of doing so. Sorry if that offends. Not my intent.

[JKLivin]

we should be celebrating and honoring native peoples and their heritage, not continuing the centuries-long cultural (and literal) genocide that has been visited upon them

their story, and history, is every bit as important as yours (or mine). calling their history a fiction, to me, is denigrating and inhumane

“we” should do better. “we” should expect and demand better

a.) Nobody is suggesting that we not celebrate a culture or a heritage.
b.) Nobody is suggesting continued cultural or literal genocide.
c.) Nobody is calling their history a fiction.

Step back from the hyperbole machine for a minute, dude. You're overheating.

[jfish26]

we should be celebrating and honoring native peoples and their heritage, not continuing the centuries-long cultural (and literal) genocide that has been visited upon them

their story, and history, is every bit as important as yours (or mine). calling their history a fiction, to me, is denigrating and inhumane

“we” should do better. “we” should expect and demand better

The problem here is that there are, on things like this, two (or more!) related conversations happening at the same time, and one of those conversations - which is as nuanced and challenging and sensitive of a conversation as we have in this country - tends to send everyone careening off into outer space.

On that particular conversation, I find it extremely disingenuous (heh) for the groups who have historically benefited from prior bad acts to declare themselves the sole arbiters of when it's time to "move on" and "focus on the future."

That, to me, feels like pulling up the ladder behind you. And I consider that to be inconsistent with our founding principles.

[JKLivin]

we should be celebrating and honoring native peoples and their heritage, not continuing the centuries-long cultural (and literal) genocide that has been visited upon them

their story, and history, is every bit as important as yours (or mine). calling their history a fiction, to me, is denigrating and inhumane

“we” should do better. “we” should expect and demand better

The problem here is that there are, on things like this, two (or more!) related conversations happening at the same time, and one of those conversations - which is as nuanced and challenging and sensitive of a conversation as we have in this country - tends to send everyone careening off into outer space.

On that particular conversation, I find it extremely disingenuous (heh) for the groups who have historically benefited from prior bad acts to declare themselves the sole arbiters of when it's time to "move on" and "focus on the future."

That, to me, feels like pulling up the ladder behind you. And I consider that to be inconsistent with our founding principles.

My response would be simple:
a.) I am not responsible for these atrocities.
b.) I refuse to pay reparations (monetary or otherwise) for these atrocities.
c.) I am tired of hearing about these atrocities.

My three older children all have a sufficient amount of Cherokee heritage that they received letters notifying them that they were eligible for medical and financial benefits from the government. To their credit, all three said "I would rather succeed or fail on my own. No one owes me anything. No, thank you."

[jfish26]

we should be celebrating and honoring native peoples and their heritage, not continuing the centuries-long cultural (and literal) genocide that has been visited upon them

their story, and history, is every bit as important as yours (or mine). calling their history a fiction, to me, is denigrating and inhumane

“we” should do better. “we” should expect and demand better

The problem here is that there are, on things like this, two (or more!) related conversations happening at the same time, and one of those conversations - which is as nuanced and challenging and sensitive of a conversation as we have in this country - tends to send everyone careening off into outer space.

On that particular conversation, I find it extremely disingenuous (heh) for the groups who have historically benefited from prior bad acts to declare themselves the sole arbiters of when it's time to "move on" and "focus on the future."

That, to me, feels like pulling up the ladder behind you. And I consider that to be inconsistent with our founding principles.

My response would be simple:
a.) I am not responsible for these atrocities.
b.) I refuse to pay reparations (monetary or otherwise) for these atrocities.
c.) I am tired of hearing about these atrocities.

My three older children all have a sufficient amount of Cherokee heritage that they received letters notifying them that they were eligible for medical and financial benefits from the government. To their credit, all three said "I would rather succeed or fail on my own. No one owes me anything. No, thank you."

Your response is perfectly rational, but also sort of my point - I don't think your (or my, or anyone's) degree of personal responsibility is all that relevant to a conversation over what I think you're really getting at in (b). Nor is your (or my, or anyone's) fatigue from "hearing about these atrocities."

Which isn't at all to say those things don't matter at all.

They just don't, to me, matter in terms of a conversation over what I think you're really getting at in (b).

[JKLivin]

The problem here is that there are, on things like this, two (or more!) related conversations happening at the same time, and one of those conversations - which is as nuanced and challenging and sensitive of a conversation as we have in this country - tends to send everyone careening off into outer space.

On that particular conversation, I find it extremely disingenuous (heh) for the groups who have historically benefited from prior bad acts to declare themselves the sole arbiters of when it's time to "move on" and "focus on the future."

That, to me, feels like pulling up the ladder behind you. And I consider that to be inconsistent with our founding principles.

My response would be simple:
a.) I am not responsible for these atrocities.
b.) I refuse to pay reparations (monetary or otherwise) for these atrocities.
c.) I am tired of hearing about these atrocities.

My three older children all have a sufficient amount of Cherokee heritage that they received letters notifying them that they were eligible for medical and financial benefits from the government. To their credit, all three said "I would rather succeed or fail on my own. No one owes me anything. No, thank you."

Your response is perfectly rational, but also sort of my point - I don't think your (or my, or anyone's) degree of personal responsibility is all that relevant to a conversation over what I think you're really getting at in (b). Nor is your (or my, or anyone's) fatigue from "hearing about these atrocities."

Which isn't at all to say those things don't matter at all.

They just don't, to me, matter in terms of a conversation over what I think you're really getting at in (b).

Fair enough. We will have to agree to disagree, but I do appreciate and respect the tone of your response.

[twocoach]

we should be celebrating and honoring native peoples and their heritage, not continuing the centuries-long cultural (and literal) genocide that has been visited upon them

their story, and history, is every bit as important as yours (or mine). calling their history a fiction, to me, is denigrating and inhumane

“we” should do better. “we” should expect and demand better

The problem here is that there are, on things like this, two (or more!) related conversations happening at the same time, and one of those conversations - which is as nuanced and challenging and sensitive of a conversation as we have in this country - tends to send everyone careening off into outer space.

On that particular conversation, I find it extremely disingenuous (heh) for the groups who have historically benefited from prior bad acts to declare themselves the sole arbiters of when it's time to "move on" and "focus on the future."

That, to me, feels like pulling up the ladder behind you. And I consider that to be inconsistent with our founding principles.

My response would be simple:
a.) I am not responsible for these atrocities.
b.) I refuse to pay reparations (monetary or otherwise) for these atrocities.
c.) I am tired of hearing about these atrocities.

My three older children all have a sufficient amount of Cherokee heritage that they received letters notifying them that they were eligible for medical and financial benefits from the government. To their credit, all three said "I would rather succeed or fail on my own. No one owes me anything. No, thank you."

1) Same
2) Same. I do not feel that reparations are a thing that should be done. It's like punishing next year's KU basketball team for violations that happened on a team 10 years ago.
3) I have not seen a single article, news report or discussion about reparations for Native Americans. You posts here are the ONLY time that I have ever heard them discussed for Native Americans.

And of course you just happen to know someone who fits into the discussion. You and Randy magically seem to "know a guy" that fits every example. I have found that people who do that do it so that they do not have to provide an actual verifiable example since "this guy I know said...." isn't something that can be verified.

[JKLivin]

The problem here is that there are, on things like this, two (or more!) related conversations happening at the same time, and one of those conversations - which is as nuanced and challenging and sensitive of a conversation as we have in this country - tends to send everyone careening off into outer space.

On that particular conversation, I find it extremely disingenuous (heh) for the groups who have historically benefited from prior bad acts to declare themselves the sole arbiters of when it's time to "move on" and "focus on the future."

That, to me, feels like pulling up the ladder behind you. And I consider that to be inconsistent with our founding principles.

My response would be simple:
a.) I am not responsible for these atrocities.
b.) I refuse to pay reparations (monetary or otherwise) for these atrocities.
c.) I am tired of hearing about these atrocities.

My three older children all have a sufficient amount of Cherokee heritage that they received letters notifying them that they were eligible for medical and financial benefits from the government. To their credit, all three said "I would rather succeed or fail on my own. No one owes me anything. No, thank you."

1) Same
2) Same. I do not feel that reparations are a thing that should be done. It's like punishing next year's KU basketball team for violations that happened on a team 10 years ago.
3) I have not seen a single article, news report or discussion about reparations for Native Americans. You posts here are the ONLY time that I have ever heard them discussed for Native Americans.

And of course you just happen to know someone who fits into the discussion. You and Randy magically seem to "know a guy" that fits every example. I have found that people who do that do it so that they do not have to provide an actual verifiable example since "this guy I know said...." isn't something that can be verified.

Glad we agree on some things. I apologize that my three older kids are part Cherokee and that it conveniently supports my point. If it helps any, my two year old has zero Native American heritage and is thus complicit with my wife and me for the atrocities.

[jfish26]

The problem here is that there are, on things like this, two (or more!) related conversations happening at the same time, and one of those conversations - which is as nuanced and challenging and sensitive of a conversation as we have in this country - tends to send everyone careening off into outer space.

On that particular conversation, I find it extremely disingenuous (heh) for the groups who have historically benefited from prior bad acts to declare themselves the sole arbiters of when it's time to "move on" and "focus on the future."

That, to me, feels like pulling up the ladder behind you. And I consider that to be inconsistent with our founding principles.

My response would be simple:
a.) I am not responsible for these atrocities.
b.) I refuse to pay reparations (monetary or otherwise) for these atrocities.
c.) I am tired of hearing about these atrocities.

My three older children all have a sufficient amount of Cherokee heritage that they received letters notifying them that they were eligible for medical and financial benefits from the government. To their credit, all three said "I would rather succeed or fail on my own. No one owes me anything. No, thank you."

1) Same
2) Same. I do not feel that reparations are a thing that should be done. It's like punishing next year's KU basketball team for violations that happened on a team 10 years ago.
3) I have not seen a single article, news report or discussion about reparations for Native Americans. You posts here are the ONLY time that I have ever heard them discussed for Native Americans.

And of course you just happen to know someone who fits into the discussion. You and Randy magically seem to "know a guy" that fits every example. I have found that people who do that do it so that they do not have to provide an actual verifiable example since "this guy I know said...." isn't something that can be verified.

I’m not in favor of cash reparations. I do support thoughtful policies that seek to level the opportunity playing field.

I will let JK describe what he meant by describing other kinds of reparations.

[KUTradition]

giggles

what conversation are you trying to have?

and with whom?

please be specific. you quoted me to interject a screed about “colonization”, which you then tried to morph into a discussion about reparations…which has very little to do with this thread or the discussions herein

you seem hell-bent on interjecting the white victimhood narrative, which is why i called it out

Like your buddy, you read a great deal into my posts that is unwarranted.

I objected to the use of the inflammatory term "colonization" because it is designed it elicit an emotional response. I'm not claiming victimhood. I'm not denying that these events happened. I'm suggesting that perhaps a measured discussion of a) what value there is in couching the events in emotionally-laden language and b) what is the end game of doing so. Sorry if that offends. Not my intent.

news flash…there’s a lot more than just two members of this community that have recognized and commented on the underlying themes of your posts

“colonialism” is what happened. what would you call it? the North American continent was colonized by Europeans at the expense of those who get here first

attempting to white-wash it by calling it anything else is disingenuous…there’s a thread for just such things