America Failed

[jfish26]

"Hey, Kamala could have campaigned on these issues."
Shows proof that she did.
"OK, but not the exact way I wanted her to campaign about those issues!"

This.

[BiggDick]

ugh, sorry, gonna be annoying again.

I dunno if we can so definitively say "running to the left wouldn't have saved Kamala" when she otherwise lost so hard by running to the right.

yea, a majority of voters bought what Trump was selling (gag), so then maybe the move shouldn't have been for Kamala to try to sell something so similar to Trump.

but again, this prob comes less down to actual issues and more to popularity contests and grievance politics.

[TDub]

what exactly is he selling? does he know? does anyone know?

[DeletedUser]

when she otherwise lost so hard by running to the right.

That isn't what happened (in my opinion).

But, like PDub provided in response to an early post of yours, you didn't seem to aware of what she actually ran on.

Which is fine. Most people don't pay attention either. Thats not meant as condescension. Just reality.

[BiggDick]

sorry illy, but that does come across as condescension. You lack the good faith to come across as anything but.

I do agree that most people don't pay attention either tho.

My gripe is more that even Kamala's website has a bunch of feel good bullet points, they come across as little more than hollow rhetoric, and at odds with the status quo she otherwise played a big role in administering.

And Trump's rhetoric is hollow too, of course. But at the end of the day, Trump just does a better job of selling a load of shit. I don't mean that as a compliment.

[pdub]

when she otherwise lost so hard by running to the right.

That isn't what happened (in my opinion).

But, like PDub provided in response to an early post of yours, you didn't seem to aware of what she actually ran on.

Which is fine. Most people don't pay attention either. Thats not meant as condescension. Just reality.

Correct.

[BiggDick]

what exactly is he selling? does he know? does anyone know?

grievance.

Plus a rightward shift on things like the border. Since Kamala adopted his "build the wall and crack down on the thug immigrant" sort of messaging, he had to go even harder with this "mass deportation now" shit.

I dunno what good it did for Kamala to go right on the border. It may have been some net gain of votes if she went for some more progressive approach.

And polar shifts like, Dems not budging on the war machine but Trump offering at least some sorta walking it back, geopolitical implications be damned. Tho Trump might be even more hardcore about wiping Gaza off the map.

But again, at some point it may have been a net gain of votes for Kamala to at least ease up on that much, if not actually appeal to the overlanders of the world with some meaningful CEASEFIRE NOW sort of plan (that didn't also involve ongoing carte blanche weapons support for Israel).

I also think Trump sells a brand of sticking it to the man - his legal troubles come across to his base less as actual red flags and signs of a criminal, and more as their savior being persecuted by the establishment or some shit.

He also appeals to the American instinct of defiance. We had it during covid, we had it during the Boston tea party, we have it now. There's just something ingrained in us collectively that makes us wanna tell everybody else to go fuck themselves.

[pdub]

My gripe is more that even Kamala's website has a bunch of feel good bullet points

"Good find!"
Searches for the points pdub listed out for him. Speed reads them to find flaws. Comes back to post asap.
Hasn't actually read through her issues listed, calls them a bunch of feel good bullet points.

[BiggDick]

actually, I did respond to each one with my concerns about them.

You disregarded my responses, to instead reply "correct" to accusations that the one not paying attention is, in fact, me.

[jfish26]

sorry illy, but that does come across as condescension. You lack the good faith to come across as anything but.

I do agree that most people don't pay attention either tho.

My gripe is more that Kamala's website bullet points come across as little more than hollow rhetoric, and at odds with the status quo she otherwise played a big role in administering.

And Trump's rhetoric is hollow too, of course. But at the end of the day, Trump just does a better job of selling a load of shit. I don't mean that as a compliment.

I just think this falls apart at any kind of close inspection - take the transformative policy proposal of Medicare covering in-home care.

It got next to zero coverage, because Americans didn't actually want to talk about policy at all.

They wanted to argue over whose reality was real.

[TDub]

the thing is, the people Trumps changes will most likely hurt the most....is his voter base (and the rest of us little people generally) Its an interesting thing

[pdub]

Did you want Kamala to list in depth day by day, exactly what she intends to do, and how to do it?
You realize she needs to balance giving too much detail so that someone won't read it ( you ) vs slimming it down so much it says nothing.

Take for instance her first platform:

"Unlike Donald Trump, Vice President Harris and Governor Walz are committed to ensuring no one earning less than $400,000 a year will pay more in taxes. They believe that we need to chart a New Way Forward by both making our tax system fairer and prioritizing investment and innovation. They will ensure the wealthiest Americans and the largest corporations pay their fair share, so we can take action to build up the middle class while reducing the deficit. This includes rolling back Trump’s tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans, enacting a billionaire minimum tax, quadrupling the tax on stock buybacks, and other reforms to ensure the very wealthy are playing by the same rules as the middle class. Under her plan, the tax rate on long-term capital gains for those earning a million dollars a year or more will be 28 percent"

Those are specific things - not feel good bullet points.

[TDub]

I would like, basic rights for American people, some semblance of universal Healthcare (or at minimum a dramatic shift in healthcare) and some sort of environmental approach as much as reasonable with expansion of protected areas.

All of these things took a large step backwards. It is unfortunate.

[BiggDick]

yea, MAGA is a lot of cut off one's nose to spite one's face. Who cares about material conditions when you can own the libs instead?

And yea, fish, sadly it does seem like most Americans don't actually want to talk about policy at all. I tried to ask PDub but he disregarded it when I said maybe Kamala's bigger issue, even bigger than her platform, was some likability test.

but yea, "to argue over whose reality is real" is the theme of the entire pols bored any more.

[BiggDick]

I would like, basic rights for American people, some semblance of universal Healthcare (or at minimum a dramatic shift in healthcare) and some sort of environmental approach as much as reasonable with expansion of protected areas.

All of these things took a large step backwards. It is unfortunate.

^^^^

it's a shame you didn't run in the primary...if there was a primary to run...

#TDub4Prez

[dolomite]

Sensible humble perspective on why trump was elected:

Tell it to someone who cares.
We don’t.

I care.

[BiggDick]

Did you want Kamala to list in depth day by day, exactly what she intends to do, and how to do it?
You realize she needs to balance giving too much detail so that someone won't read it ( you ) vs slimming it down so much it says nothing.

Take for instance her first platform:

"Unlike Donald Trump, Vice President Harris and Governor Walz are committed to ensuring no one earning less than $400,000 a year will pay more in taxes. They believe that we need to chart a New Way Forward by both making our tax system fairer and prioritizing investment and innovation. They will ensure the wealthiest Americans and the largest corporations pay their fair share, so we can take action to build up the middle class while reducing the deficit. This includes rolling back Trump’s tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans, enacting a billionaire minimum tax, quadrupling the tax on stock buybacks, and other reforms to ensure the very wealthy are playing by the same rules as the middle class. Under her plan, the tax rate on long-term capital gains for those earning a million dollars a year or more will be 28 percent"

Those are specific things - not feel good bullet points.

yea.

two things which I've already touched on.

1. Why the wait? She's already high up in this administration. Rather than offer as a specific thing for reelection, why not just do it now, or in the last 4 years?

2. Would you say her problem, even more than platform, is likability?

okay, a third: I think Kamala trying to articulate these specific things may still be worth less than Trump just generally stoking some empty "F the man" sorts of sentiments, material reality be damned.

[jfish26]

the thing is, the people Trumps changes will most likely hurt the most....is his voter base (and the rest of us little people generally) Its an interesting thing

It's so hard to respond to things like this without coming across as judgmental of low-information voters. That's not my intention at all - some people are simply more plugged in than others.

But yeah, the way the cogs of the wheels lined up was that a great many people who last night held Biden/Ds responsible for inflation are those who simply will be kept in their place (or worse) by economic plans that benefit the groups that tend to be...high-information voters.

[DeletedUser]

I dunno what good it did for Kamala to go right on the border. It may have been some net gain of votes if she went for some more progressive approach.

It seems you're not paying attention. Again, not condescension. You're relating everything to how YOU feel.

She shifted her border policy because progressive border policies don't help with the hispanic/Latino vote that she needed.

When these illegals come in, they don't move into upper middle class neighborhoods. They move into Hispanic/Latino or minority neighborhoods and communities. Many of these people, who are voters who vote, not just post online, want strong border policies. Controlled immigration laws.

Watch some TV (if you can stomach it today). The exit polling data they have been sharing all night/morning support this.

Progressive border policies seem to mostly help with segments she already dominates.

[BiggDick]

OK.

then how do you reconcile that with you also mentioning Trump did so well with Hispanic/Latino segments? Didn't you just also cite that earlier in this thread?

And do you have anything to suggest progressive border policies don't/wouldn't have done well with the Hispanic/Latino vote that she needed?