We lost the battle for the democrat party's soul long ago

Ugh.
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randylahey
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Re: We lost the battle for the democrat party's soul long ago

Post by randylahey »

KUTradition wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2024 9:56 am hey pdub, can you just ban randi from posting twitter stories?

he seems to have difficulty with critical thinking and filtering things himself
You have a lot in common with that woman. Must be triggering. You're most consistent contributions on this board are calling people a "POS" and crying for those you don't agree with to be banned. Toxic. Like the woman screaming in the face of a toddler

You may not agree with my views, but at least I'm not the one just bitterly name calling
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KUTradition
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Re: We lost the battle for the democrat party's soul long ago

Post by KUTradition »

randylahey wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2024 10:42 am
KUTradition wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2024 9:56 am hey pdub, can you just ban randi from posting twitter stories?

he seems to have difficulty with critical thinking and filtering things himself
You have a lot in common with that woman. Must be triggering. You're most consistent contributions on this board are calling people a "POS" and crying for those you don't agree with to be banned. Toxic. Like the woman screaming in the face of a toddler

You may not agree with my views, but at least I'm not the one just bitterly name calling
your views are founded on lies

you get called out on those lies, yet remain silent…that makes you a dishonest, disingenuous piece of shit

do better

(the funniest, but only truthful part about your failure of an analogy, is that you’re the toddler)
Have we fallen into a mesmerized state that makes us accept as inevitable that which is inferior or detrimental, as though having lost the will or the vision to demand that which is good?
Sparko
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Re: We lost the battle for the democrat party's soul long ago

Post by Sparko »

To agree with Randy, you must believe lies. Literally a paraphrase of Orwell's 1984.
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randylahey
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Re: We lost the battle for the democrat party's soul long ago

Post by randylahey »

KUTradition wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2024 12:04 pm
randylahey wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2024 10:42 am
KUTradition wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2024 9:56 am hey pdub, can you just ban randi from posting twitter stories?

he seems to have difficulty with critical thinking and filtering things himself
You have a lot in common with that woman. Must be triggering. You're most consistent contributions on this board are calling people a "POS" and crying for those you don't agree with to be banned. Toxic. Like the woman screaming in the face of a toddler

You may not agree with my views, but at least I'm not the one just bitterly name calling
your views are founded on lies

you get called out on those lies, yet remain silent…that makes you a dishonest, disingenuous piece of shit

do better

(the funniest, but only truthful part about your failure of an analogy, is that you’re the toddler)
Right back to name calling. I hope you're doing OK in real life. Cause your behavior on here makes me assume you're probably miserable
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KUTradition
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Re: We lost the battle for the democrat party's soul long ago

Post by KUTradition »

randylahey wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2024 1:12 pm
KUTradition wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2024 12:04 pm
randylahey wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2024 10:42 am

You have a lot in common with that woman. Must be triggering. You're most consistent contributions on this board are calling people a "POS" and crying for those you don't agree with to be banned. Toxic. Like the woman screaming in the face of a toddler

You may not agree with my views, but at least I'm not the one just bitterly name calling
your views are founded on lies

you get called out on those lies, yet remain silent…that makes you a dishonest, disingenuous piece of shit

do better

(the funniest, but only truthful part about your failure of an analogy, is that you’re the toddler)
Right back to name calling. I hope you're doing OK in real life. Cause your behavior on here makes me assume you're probably miserable
because i don’t tolerate liars?

:lol:


do better

(if you want to be treated like an adult, act like one)
Have we fallen into a mesmerized state that makes us accept as inevitable that which is inferior or detrimental, as though having lost the will or the vision to demand that which is good?
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BiggDick
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Re: We lost the battle for the democrat party's soul long ago

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this is like, SO much to unpack.

They get a few things right, generally. Out of touch! Did not focus on the everyday issues of Americans!

That amount of awareness alone seems like a good start, like maybe dems actually WILL learn something from all this. But then...holy shit!

Despite getting their butts kicked with the explicitly hard-center play in this election, they wonder if the problem was shifting too far left. A freak show!

Then they show their hand and candidly offer that maybe their idea of a too-far-left "freak show" may be and have simply nothing more than, running a woman of color.

At this rate dems are trying to out-pub the pubs. But single biggest difference is, at least pubs will look you in the eye and tell you who they are.

Imma need another cup of coffee for this one.

https://www.politico.com/news/2024/11/1 ... c-00189933

Centrist Dems seize opening at the DNC: ‘I don’t want to be the freak show party’
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Re: We lost the battle for the democrat party's soul long ago

Post by jfish26 »

You keep doing this.

Do you really believe that going more to the left would have won Harris more votes (than would have been lost) in the handful of places she needed them?

You seem very intent on having these conversations in a bubble of principled non-reality.
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BiggDick
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Re: We lost the battle for the democrat party's soul long ago

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ummm...I'm not sure I keep doing this.

I don't think I said anything here about how I "believe that going more to the left would have won Harris more votes (than would have been lost)"

maybe you perceive it as logically implied, I guess? Considering how many votes not "would have been," but WERE lost by staying, NOT "more to the left," to instead stay so rigidly in the "center." The Harris campaign's move was to appeal less to the dem's own "base" but instead more to republicans. But I don't think that's necessarily a logical conclusion.

The article talks about the DNC wanting to appeal to guys who drive trucks, and moms with 3 kids in middle America who are "just not really into politics" anyway, but anyway have the "bejesus" scared out of them by Dem messaging so much so that they end up preferring Trump's "weirdness."

So what was that scary Dem messaging, anyway? It seemed explicitly centrist in real time, but now that it didn't work, in hindsight it's pointing to "too far leftward" as a scapegoat?

We get some insight on how the DNC internally perceives things. They worry about going/having gone too far leftward, then the perception of "too far leftward" so candidly offered is basically, they ran a woman of color. Now there's concern lesson they're taking away is that maybe "diverse leadership...doesn't work."

It's like they define "woke progressive" and "freak show" as nothing more than "woman of color" (and even as that woman of color downplayed the whole woman of color thing and runs on a centrist platform anyway.)

It makes the DNC sound just so hollowed-out and shallow. It's as if they lost their soul.
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Re: We lost the battle for the democrat party's soul long ago

Post by jfish26 »

Too much shit in the blender, man.

What you keep doing is insisting that the Dems lost because they took too centrist of an approach.

I don’t think that the math really supports that conclusion.

I think you are zooming in on a tiny piece of a big story, and learning the wrong lessons (as to the big story) from the tiny piece.
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BiggDick
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Re: We lost the battle for the democrat party's soul long ago

Post by BiggDick »

Like I said, I don't think that's necessarily a logical conclusion.

I don't insist a thing here. It's likely a causation/correlation thing, anyway. Dems lost. And Dems took a centrist approach. Maybe those things are related.

I think there's still MORE of a lesson to learn for dems than simply they didn't appeal enough to the middle, tho, either way.

You mention me zooming in too far, and that it's *me* learning the wrong lessons because of it. What do you think are the RIGHT lessons to learn here, then?

And, rather than zooming in, let's instead zoom out.

My dad's theory has been that there's some pendulum of influence with politics. Things sway back and forth to the right and to the left, as policies and demographics and the political climate and the nation in general changes too.

But, that's not what we're seeing here. Rather, we're seeing one party wanting to maintain course in "the middle," while we see the other pushing hard to the right (thus pulling "the middle" further right too).

So, zooming out then, in what direction is that bringing America?
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Re: We lost the battle for the democrat party's soul long ago

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BiggDick wrote: Sun Nov 17, 2024 12:28 pm You mention me zooming in too far, and that it's *me* learning the wrong lessons because of it. What do you think are the RIGHT lessons to learn here, then?
Probably that the Ds were years and years too late to grasp that the other side was playing a fundamentally different game.
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BiggDick
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Re: We lost the battle for the democrat party's soul long ago

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that's not a bad take.

But neither it nor the article offers much (or much different) toward what Dems are gonna do to tweak the gameplan.
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Re: We lost the battle for the democrat party's soul long ago

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BiggDick wrote: Sun Nov 17, 2024 1:03 pm that's not a bad take.

But neither it nor the article offers much (or much different) toward what Dems are gonna do to tweak the gameplan.
I meant to respond over the weekend that we're not really talking about a tweak job here.

I do not agree with everything in this post - I think the Ds need to be cautious about exercising the little power they've got, and I don't believe there is really not a "center" - a great many "lefty" policies (but not politicians) have broad popular support.

But a lot of the logic in the body of the post rings true to me.

The Democrats Need to Stop Giving Such a Damn

There’s no center worth capitulating to anymore. They need to fight and let the chips fall.
It is a very, very bad day when I have to wonder about Sherrod Brown, whose loss two weeks ago is incalculable. But he gave an interview to Tiger Beat on the Potomac and, well, his analysis was acute and—thank you, Jesus—he avoided TBOTP’s Eugene Daniels’s attempts to blame the Democratic party’s commitment to universal human rights for the fact that the country has turned once again to a vulgar talking yam.
“I mean, what we have in common is work. And there’s no reason why you can’t focus on the dignity of work and human rights. I’ve spent 32 years in Washington being that person, being one of the people that does that. It’s clear to me. My mother was always troubled by racial issues, both in the South as a small-town girl and in the North as a grown woman in a medium-sized city. And she got very involved. She founded, with another woman, the Ohio Council of YWCAs. And the YWCA’s mission for 100 years has been to eliminate racism and to empower women. That’s where I come at this from. So that makes my focus on the dignity of work deep and extensive and life-changing, or at least life-setting. So I don’t know why you can’t be both, why you can’t be supportive of civil rights and human rights in every iteration. Because I think of worker rights as a civil right and a human right.”
That answer is why Brown was an important public servant, and why we will all suffer for the fact that he will be replaced come January by a used-car dealer without an original thought in his head and whose mental odometer keeps resetting itself to 2016. But I have to wonder: If even Sherrod Brown can’t see the obvious problem, then why do we expect anyone else to do so? The problem is neither the medium nor the message. The problem lies with the people to whom the message is directed—an electorate that swings between vengeance and apathy with an occasional side trip to weaponized ignorance. And that is a problem that no politician can solve.

So, no, Adam Jentleson, the problem is not that the Democrats “remain crippled by a fetish for putting coalition management over a real desire for power. Whereas Mr. Trump has crafted an image as a different kind of Republican by routinely making claims that break with the party line on issues ranging from protecting Social Security and Medicare to mandating insurance coverage of in vitro fertilization, Democrats remain stuck trying to please all of their interest groups while watching voters of all races desert them over the very stances that these groups impose on the party. Achieving a supermajority means declaring independence from liberal and progressive interest groups that prevent Democrats from thinking clearly about how to win.”

Which of their “interest groups” does Jentleson prefer that the Democrats abandon in order to create his “supermajority” thinking? (Don’t bother guessing. I’m pretty sure I know.) How one creates a “supermajority” by abandoning some of their most loyal voters is not for small minds like mine to ponder. And Jentleson is one of the clearest thinkers the Democratic party has. If he’s that far at sea, it’s no wonder that so many other members of the party have fallen off the edge of the world.

Anticipatory obedience—pace Timothy Snyder—is the order of the day for too many of them. From Politico:
“I do think there’s this whole sentiment that we just went too far out there on identity, and it allowed the Republicans to really attack us at every turn as a result, and that we just essentially did not focus on just the everyday issues of Americans,” said one DNC member from California, granted anonymity to speak freely. “I’m not interested in anyone who is moving further away from the center,” said Cindy Bass, a Pennsylvania committee member from Philadelphia. “The center is where we have to be.”
What “center”? Where? By an admittedly ever-shrinking margin, the American people voted for a campaign based on nothing that materially affects their lives. No, Haitians are not going to eat your dog. No, the school nurse is not going to turn Edward into Elizabeth or vice versa. No, vaccines will not give your children autism. No, tariffs are not paid by the countries against which they are arrayed. And since returning a vulgar talking yam back to the office he so deeply disgraced is a more than tacit admission that you yourself believe nothing about a presidential campaign materially affects your life, there is no political answer to that situation.

We went through this once before, when the Democratic party was scared witless by the 1980 presidential election and decided to run against its most loyal supporters. This was the Democratic party of “Sister Souljah moments,” and a renewed enthusiasm for the death penalty, and deregulated derivatives. This was the party of the everlasting crouch and the permanent flinch. It was so deeply ingrained in the party that when the political order actually did reorient itself in 2008, the beneficiary of that reorientation, a once-in-a-generation political talent, spent most of his first term trying to walk through a wolverine enclosure in a meat suit, and the permanent realignment was never permanent nor was it much of a realignment.

And, frankly, the current recommendations of the remnants of the Bernie left are equally vain. The Biden administration was the most progressive administration since that of Lyndon Johnson, and Biden did it without the gales of the monstrous tailwind LBJ had behind him from a country still mourning his murdered predecessor. He walked a picket line, which even Johnson never did. He provided jobs with a massive infrastructure program. He protected pensions. (Thank you, Sherrod Brown.) If you were a working stiff with diabetes, he capped the cost of the insulin that keeps you alive. If that wasn’t enough to convince an electorate drunk on lies and dark imaginings to elect his vice president, do you really believe that a Green New Deal or Medicare for All would have? Please.

All weekend, the signs of a new capitulation were everywhere. President Biden pretended that the vulgar talking yam was up to the job that the yam had failed at so spectacularly the last time around. Jack Smith is folding up his tents. The Democratic members of the House Ethics Committee are tying themselves in knots over whether the country needs to know what the committee learned about the incoming nominee for attorney general and his alleged involvement in underage sex trafficking and drug abuse. Just put it out there. Stop giving a damn about norms that no longer exist. Just do it, and let the chips fall.

That would be a start. Then fight with every weapon, fair or foul, to prevent the Cabinet of Dr. Caligari from presiding over the agencies of the executive branch. All of them, not just one or two. None of them are legitimate candidates simply by virtue of who nominated them. And remember: There are no votes to be had in “the center” because there is no “center” anymore. On Friday, the once and future president demanded that Iowa pollster J. Ann Selzer be investigated because of the poll she published shortly before the election that said Vice President Harris was leading in that state. (Pro tip: She was not.) Selzer has since resigned, but that isn’t enough of a consequence for the once and future president.
“A totally Fake poll that caused great distrust and uncertainty at a very critical time. She knew exactly what she was doing. Thank you to the GREAT PEOPLE OF IOWA for giving me such a record breaking vote, despite possible ELECTION FRAUD by Ann Selzer and the now discredited ‘newspaper’ for which she works. An investigation is fully called for!”
(Pro tip: Trump’s fifteen-point win in Iowa broke no records. In 1964, LBJ beat Barry Goldwater by thirty-four points, In 1956, Dwight Eisenhower won by nineteen over Adlai Stevenson, whom he’d defeated four years earlier. FDR beat Herbert Hoover by eighteen in 1932. Four years earlier, Hoover finished twenty-four points ahead of Democratic candidate Al Smith. In 1924, Calvin Coolidge won by twenty-seven points over two badly split Democratic-Progressive opponents. Hell, Warren F*cking Harding won Iowa by twenty-five percentage points. So, in an act of Christian charity, I will award to the president-elect the title of the Biggest Margin of Victory of the Twenty-first Century In Iowa by a Convicted Felon.)

There is truth and there are lies. There is reality and there is fantasy. Right now truth and reality have an inadequate constituency to affect public policy. But there is no center. None at all.
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BiggDick
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Re: We lost the battle for the democrat party's soul long ago

Post by BiggDick »

that's a long ass post!

Without dismissing all that too as "too much shit in the blender," lemme just say my favorite part is how it points to some progressive performative gestures (picket lines) and mostly-yet-to-be-implemented (infrastructure) and some other niche causes (pensions, insulin) as evidence for dems to NOT try for actual big initiatives that a majority of Americans otherwise support (green new deal, healthcare)

Quite the logic.
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Re: We lost the battle for the democrat party's soul long ago

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You are again applying completely unrealistic standards; tell me how, in reality, Biden could have done those things given the composition of Congress and the Court.
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BiggDick
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Re: We lost the battle for the democrat party's soul long ago

Post by BiggDick »

messaging.

ETA and/or...um, by just being an effective politician?

Build coalitions and reach across the aisle and stop scapegoating the other party to make excuses for why you can't even try to pursue initiatives that are otherwise popular with a majority of your nation's people.
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Re: We lost the battle for the democrat party's soul long ago

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This is not a reality-based response.
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Re: We lost the battle for the democrat party's soul long ago

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he’s not a serious person
Have we fallen into a mesmerized state that makes us accept as inevitable that which is inferior or detrimental, as though having lost the will or the vision to demand that which is good?
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BiggDick
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Re: We lost the battle for the democrat party's soul long ago

Post by BiggDick »

jfish26 wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2024 1:43 pm This is not a reality-based response.
Um, ok? Sure.

If it is not a “reality-based response,” then it’s not for the reasons you seem to be thinking.

I just really struggle to understand why dems think it’s such a bad idea for dems to go for popular initiatives.
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Re: We lost the battle for the democrat party's soul long ago

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BiggDick wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2024 2:12 pm
jfish26 wrote: Tue Nov 19, 2024 1:43 pm This is not a reality-based response.
Um, ok? Sure.

If it is not a “reality-based response,” then it’s not for the reasons you seem to be thinking.

I just really struggle to understand why dems think it’s such a bad idea for dems to go for popular initiatives.
Because this isn’t Boys State.
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