trump’s promises

[JKLivin]

ha, yeah, fair enough.

My grievances about standard of living are less racist and more about...well, standard of living.

(in the traditional sense of the term, as some economic metric)

and not that I want to give any credit at all to a single MAGA voter, but, I also think there may be some otherwise-decent, not necessarily motivated by racism, sorts of voters who went for Trump - gross, I know! - cuz they too were concerned about more traditional (read: economic) sorts of grievances about standard of living.

I think that's a big part of how dems lost so many younger and working-class and of-color voters.

I'm afraid many folks really are feeling economically squeezed. And, if it comes down to believing dems refraining "no yer not!" or believing their own pocket book, which do you expect them to believe?

All of this is exactly what I’m saying. In order to advance their nativist agenda, MAGAs quite successfully got non-nativists to attach themselves to the message.

Assuming that your premise is correct - which I don't agree with - wouldn't some of the blame fall to Giggles for not sufficiently addressing the economic concerns in her campaign? Seems like she started off with the party line of "There's no inflation. That's a lie of the racist/misogynist/rube party," that morphed to "It's a little rough out there, but be thankful we're not Venezuela" to finally, "I feel your pain, and we'll make those mean businesses stop charging you so much." It was a big leap in a short period of time, and it appeared insincere to me.

[jfish26]

nah.

like, big nah.

I didn't attach myself to shit.

economic concerns are bigger than just the MAGA message.

To think "if you have economic concerns then you're attaching yourself to MAGA" seems more like, once again, just your own incredibly partisan views on display. You come across as if you think economic concerns couldn't be anything more than a red-or-blue thing.

But since you brought it up - speaking of MAGAs quite successfully getting "non-nativists" to attach themselves to the message, did you already forget Kamala's stance on the border?

We have an entire different thread that has been dominated by you throwing in with MAGA (whether you acknowledge it or not) on other talking points that appeal to your non-MAGA sensibilities.

It is wrong to characterize my views on anything in particular as strictly a "red-or-blue" thing. But the election was, necessarily, a "red-or-blue" thing. No matter how much you or anyone else wishes it was not.

And that election will very likely turn out to be a disaster for a great many people who found just enough reasons not to support keeping MAGA out of effective control of our entire government.

[BiggDick]

We have an entire different thread that has been dominated by you throwing in with MAGA (whether you acknowledge it or not) on other talking points that appeal to your non-MAGA sensibilities.

If it's the thread I think you're alluding to - I did acknowledge that. I also made a good-faith effort to distinguish, including a compare and contrast of, my own talking points with the talking points of MAGA's and others.

You just failed to even acknowedge that, let alone consider that, for reasons I have tried to discuss, but with futile results.

Now, that reminds me. I initially refrained, but since you brought it up, I might have to go bump something in the Misinformation thread after all.

It is wrong to characterize my views on anything in particular as strictly a "red-or-blue" thing. But the election was, necessarily, a "red-or-blue" thing. No matter how much you or anyone else wishes it was not.

ugh.

if you want to put it THAT way, let's discuss in this vacuum.

If American voters really must choose between the lesser of the two evils, and actually went for something as evil as the red pill, then man how rotten must the blue pill be!

[jfish26]

I was talking about the Ukraine/Russia stuff where, whether you like it or not, you have found a home in the same talking points as has MAGA.

[Overlander]

"Even if you don't know it...you are UNHAPPY. Here are the reasons you are unhappy. MAGA is going to fix every single thing that makes you unhappy. MAGA is the only answer"

Repeat this a few hundred thousand times.

MAGA condensed.

[twocoach]

ha, yeah, fair enough.

My grievances about standard of living are less racist and more about...well, standard of living.

(in the traditional sense of the term, as some economic metric)

and not that I want to give any credit at all to a single MAGA voter, but, I also think there may be some otherwise-decent, not necessarily motivated by racism, sorts of voters who went for Trump - gross, I know! - cuz they too were concerned about more traditional (read: economic) sorts of grievances about standard of living.

I think that's a big part of how dems lost so many younger and working-class and of-color voters.

I'm afraid many folks really are feeling economically squeezed. And, if it comes down to believing dems refraining "no yer not!" or believing their own pocket book, which do you expect them to believe?

The mistake is not in those voters claiming that they are feeling economically squeezed. I am sure they are as we all are.

The mistake is claiming that it is because of Dem policies (it's not) and that Trump will fix it (he'll make it worse from the early sounds of it).

We're this far along and you don't even understand the basic issue regarding this despite being told dozens of times.

[KUTradition]

We're this far along and you don't even understand the basic issue regarding this despite being told dozens of times.

seems like yet another instance of deja vu

[BiggDick]

I was talking about the Ukraine/Russia stuff where, whether you like it or not, you have found a home in the same talking points as has MAGA.

Um, (again), I did acknowledge that. I also made a good-faith effort to distinguish, including a compare and contrast of, my own talking points with the talking points of MAGA's and others.

You just failed to even acknowedge that, let alone consider that, for reasons I have tried to discuss, but with futile results.

for you to (again) fail to acknowledge that, only to (again) double down like you did anyway, is to sound like the guy screaming "BUT I'M NOT AS THINK AS YOU DRUNK I AM" as the bouncer escorts him out of the bar.

For real, maybe consider that. More generally, consider just how strong the Cold War koolaid may be, before you chug another round.

More to the point of the discussion here - if the MAGA talking points on issues like war simply did resonate more with voters, then maybe it's time to stop and rethink the stubborn hawkishness that's come to define Biden/Harris and the Democratic Party...not that the Democratic Party has demonstrated any willingness or ability to self-reflect.

[BiggDick]

ha, yeah, fair enough.

My grievances about standard of living are less racist and more about...well, standard of living.

(in the traditional sense of the term, as some economic metric)

and not that I want to give any credit at all to a single MAGA voter, but, I also think there may be some otherwise-decent, not necessarily motivated by racism, sorts of voters who went for Trump - gross, I know! - cuz they too were concerned about more traditional (read: economic) sorts of grievances about standard of living.

I think that's a big part of how dems lost so many younger and working-class and of-color voters.

I'm afraid many folks really are feeling economically squeezed. And, if it comes down to believing dems refraining "no yer not!" or believing their own pocket book, which do you expect them to believe?

The mistake is not in those voters claiming that they are feeling economically squeezed. I am sure they are as we all are.

The mistake is claiming that it is because of Dem policies (it's not) and that Trump will fix it (he'll make it worse from the early sounds of it).

We're this far along and you don't even understand the basic issue regarding this despite being told dozens of times.

I understand that.

Regarding "The mistake is not in those voters claiming that they are feeling economically squeezed. I am sure they are as we all are," actually I think there was some critical mass of "actually the economy's great" self-defeating messaging exhibited by Dems, both on the campaign trail, and on this very message board.


Re: Dem policies, I think they are being blamed simply because Dems are the incumbent administration during a period of serious inflation.

I think the real mistake is not simply in whether it is because of Dem policies, but more in that Dem messaging was too much "but actually things are better than you think it is" sort of championing the status quo voters found unsavory.

Contrast that with Trump, who, for better or worse, did effectively leverage some "different than Bidenflation" and general grievance sort of messaging.

I don't think either party articulated particularly clear or reasonable economic policies in their platforms, but that's not what most voters go for.

[jfish26]

I was talking about the Ukraine/Russia stuff where, whether you like it or not, you have found a home in the same talking points as has MAGA.

Um, (again), I did acknowledge that. I also made a good-faith effort to distinguish, including a compare and contrast of, my own talking points with the talking points of MAGA's and others.

You just failed to even acknowedge that, let alone consider that, for reasons I have tried to discuss, but with futile results.

for you to (again) fail to acknowledge that, only to (again) double down like you did anyway, is to sound like the guy screaming "BUT I'M NOT AS THINK AS YOU DRUNK I AM" as the bouncer escorts him out of the bar.

For real, maybe consider that. More generally, consider just how strong the Cold War koolaid may be, before you chug another round.

More to the point of the discussion here - if the MAGA talking points on issues like war simply did resonate more with voters, then maybe it's time to stop and rethink the stubborn hawkishness that's come to define Biden/Harris and the Democratic Party...not that the Democratic Party has demonstrated any willingness or ability to self-reflect.

Which is all well and good, but when considering these issues in the limited context of a binary choice between the only two viable candidates, the appropriate response is:



MAGA gained control over all three branches of our government by, essentially, turning just enough disaffected non-MAGAs into anti-Democrat (and anti-democratic) puddles.

[BiggDick]

MeMeS!!!!

but yea, to be fair, I dunno if it was more so MAGA who turned disaffected non-MAGAs into anti-Democrats, or just Democrats alienating their own base. Is there any data about more blue voters going red, or more blue voters just staying home?

with the two big wars, the messaging with one was either, "end it in a day!" (lulz), or "for no matter how long it takes!" (lulz)

with the other it was "finish the job!" (lulz), or "what's already happening isn't actually as bad as it seems but it is gonna def get worse if you elect the other guy!" (lulz)

either way, that's a lotta lulz.

[jfish26]

We lulzed our way right into open authoritarianism, in large part because just enough people in just the right places listened to MAGA attacking the very notion of liberal democracy, but heard MAGA talking about the price of eggs.

Let us be clear: Trump and his coterie of puppeteers and assorted parasites care about the price of eggs only as a vehicle for getting people mad enough at liberal democracy enough to reject it.

[Overlander]

Let us be clear: Trump and his coterie of puppeteers and assorted parasites care about the price of eggs only as a vehicle for getting people mad enough at liberal democracy enough to reject it.

This

[jfish26]

(But without the extra "enough.")

[twocoach]

ha, yeah, fair enough.

My grievances about standard of living are less racist and more about...well, standard of living.

(in the traditional sense of the term, as some economic metric)

and not that I want to give any credit at all to a single MAGA voter, but, I also think there may be some otherwise-decent, not necessarily motivated by racism, sorts of voters who went for Trump - gross, I know! - cuz they too were concerned about more traditional (read: economic) sorts of grievances about standard of living.

I think that's a big part of how dems lost so many younger and working-class and of-color voters.

I'm afraid many folks really are feeling economically squeezed. And, if it comes down to believing dems refraining "no yer not!" or believing their own pocket book, which do you expect them to believe?

The mistake is not in those voters claiming that they are feeling economically squeezed. I am sure they are as we all are.

The mistake is claiming that it is because of Dem policies (it's not) and that Trump will fix it (he'll make it worse from the early sounds of it).

We're this far along and you don't even understand the basic issue regarding this despite being told dozens of times.

I understand that.

Regarding "The mistake is not in those voters claiming that they are feeling economically squeezed. I am sure they are as we all are," actually I think there was some critical mass of "actually the economy's great" self-defeating messaging exhibited by Dems, both on the campaign trail, and on this very message board.


Re: Dem policies, I think they are being blamed simply because Dems are the incumbent administration during a period of serious inflation.

I think the real mistake is not simply in whether it is because of Dem policies, but more in that Dem messaging was too much "but actually things are better than you think it is" sort of championing the status quo voters found unsavory.

Contrast that with Trump, who, for better or worse, did effectively leverage some "different than Bidenflation" and general grievance sort of messaging.

I don't think either party articulated particularly clear or reasonable economic policies in their platforms, but that's not what most voters go for.

Regarding the "actually the economy's great" self-defeating messaging exhibited by Dems, both on the campaign trail, and on this very message board"

I think you leave a critical piece out which is that the vast majority of that which I can recall was not just spouting "what do you mean, the economy is great!" but was rather "compared to how the rest of the world is doing, the US has handled things better and the US economy is better than the rest of the world".

COVID and the opportunistic corporate greed that ensued was a giant load of shit dropped from the sky on all of us. Some leaders funneled it through a firehose and shot it into people's face (Trump) and some tried to hand out umbrellas and dig ditches and sewers (Biden). Dumbasses were told that they were neck deep in shit (they weren't) and since they still smelled shit everywhere they concluded that they must be neck deep in shit (they weren't) so they voted to resume the firehose approach.

So the only logical conclusion that I can come to is that people are fine being lied to so long as they feel like they will get what they think they want. Trump isn't going to make the economy better and I doubt he has any real plan to even try. He is going to dismantle regulations, auditing and guardrails so that criminal billionaires can roll their trucks right up to the front doors of Fort Knox and rob this country blind. The rest of us will be left to grovel after those trucks hoping that a few droppings might fall out the back.

[twocoach]

I was talking about the Ukraine/Russia stuff where, whether you like it or not, you have found a home in the same talking points as has MAGA.

Um, (again), I did acknowledge that. I also made a good-faith effort to distinguish, including a compare and contrast of, my own talking points with the talking points of MAGA's and others.

You just failed to even acknowedge that, let alone consider that, for reasons I have tried to discuss, but with futile results.

for you to (again) fail to acknowledge that, only to (again) double down like you did anyway, is to sound like the guy screaming "BUT I'M NOT AS THINK AS YOU DRUNK I AM" as the bouncer escorts him out of the bar.

For real, maybe consider that. More generally, consider just how strong the Cold War koolaid may be, before you chug another round.

More to the point of the discussion here - if the MAGA talking points on issues like war simply did resonate more with voters, then maybe it's time to stop and rethink the stubborn hawkishness that's come to define Biden/Harris and the Democratic Party...not that the Democratic Party has demonstrated any willingness or ability to self-reflect.

To be fair, most of your posts are filled with unnecessary word vomits so it can be difficult to actually sort the points you try to make out of all the smartass comment you can't seem to avoid. Entire sentences of discombobulated phrases that have nothing to do with the phrases they sit next to. Readers shouldn't have to work so hard to search for a point. Most of us just give up and move on.

[BiggDick]

ok.

then...just give up and move on?

[BiggDick]

since they still smelled shit everywhere they concluded that they must be neck deep in shit (they weren't)

this is a helluva way to respond to a post about gaslighting.

[Overlander]

The mistake is not in those voters claiming that they are feeling economically squeezed. I am sure they are as we all are.

The mistake is claiming that it is because of Dem policies (it's not) and that Trump will fix it (he'll make it worse from the early sounds of it).

We're this far along and you don't even understand the basic issue regarding this despite being told dozens of times.

I understand that.

Regarding "The mistake is not in those voters claiming that they are feeling economically squeezed. I am sure they are as we all are," actually I think there was some critical mass of "actually the economy's great" self-defeating messaging exhibited by Dems, both on the campaign trail, and on this very message board.


Re: Dem policies, I think they are being blamed simply because Dems are the incumbent administration during a period of serious inflation.

I think the real mistake is not simply in whether it is because of Dem policies, but more in that Dem messaging was too much "but actually things are better than you think it is" sort of championing the status quo voters found unsavory.

Contrast that with Trump, who, for better or worse, did effectively leverage some "different than Bidenflation" and general grievance sort of messaging.

I don't think either party articulated particularly clear or reasonable economic policies in their platforms, but that's not what most voters go for.

Regarding the "actually the economy's great" self-defeating messaging exhibited by Dems, both on the campaign trail, and on this very message board"

I think you leave a critical piece out which is that the vast majority of that which I can recall was not just spouting "what do you mean, the economy is great!" but was rather "compared to how the rest of the world is doing, the US has handled things better and the US economy is better than the rest of the world".

COVID and the opportunistic corporate greed that ensued was a giant load of shit dropped from the sky on all of us. Some leaders funneled it through a firehose and shot it into people's face (Trump) and some tried to hand out umbrellas and dig ditches and sewers (Biden). Dumbasses were told that they were neck deep in shit (they weren't) and since they still smelled shit everywhere they concluded that they must be neck deep in shit (they weren't) so they voted to resume the firehose approach.

So the only logical conclusion that I can come to is that people are fine being lied to so long as they feel like they will get what they think they want. Trump isn't going to make the economy better and I doubt he has any real plan to even try. He is going to dismantle regulations, auditing and guardrails so that criminal billionaires can roll their trucks right up to the front doors of Fort Knox and rob this country blind. The rest of us will be left to grovel after those trucks hoping that a few droppings might fall out the back.

Its going to get dark next year.
The mouth breathers will have to find another boogeyman....quick.
'Cause it sure won't be Capt Tangerine.

[jfish26]

I understand that.

Regarding "The mistake is not in those voters claiming that they are feeling economically squeezed. I am sure they are as we all are," actually I think there was some critical mass of "actually the economy's great" self-defeating messaging exhibited by Dems, both on the campaign trail, and on this very message board.


Re: Dem policies, I think they are being blamed simply because Dems are the incumbent administration during a period of serious inflation.

I think the real mistake is not simply in whether it is because of Dem policies, but more in that Dem messaging was too much "but actually things are better than you think it is" sort of championing the status quo voters found unsavory.

Contrast that with Trump, who, for better or worse, did effectively leverage some "different than Bidenflation" and general grievance sort of messaging.

I don't think either party articulated particularly clear or reasonable economic policies in their platforms, but that's not what most voters go for.

Regarding the "actually the economy's great" self-defeating messaging exhibited by Dems, both on the campaign trail, and on this very message board"

I think you leave a critical piece out which is that the vast majority of that which I can recall was not just spouting "what do you mean, the economy is great!" but was rather "compared to how the rest of the world is doing, the US has handled things better and the US economy is better than the rest of the world".

COVID and the opportunistic corporate greed that ensued was a giant load of shit dropped from the sky on all of us. Some leaders funneled it through a firehose and shot it into people's face (Trump) and some tried to hand out umbrellas and dig ditches and sewers (Biden). Dumbasses were told that they were neck deep in shit (they weren't) and since they still smelled shit everywhere they concluded that they must be neck deep in shit (they weren't) so they voted to resume the firehose approach.

So the only logical conclusion that I can come to is that people are fine being lied to so long as they feel like they will get what they think they want. Trump isn't going to make the economy better and I doubt he has any real plan to even try. He is going to dismantle regulations, auditing and guardrails so that criminal billionaires can roll their trucks right up to the front doors of Fort Knox and rob this country blind. The rest of us will be left to grovel after those trucks hoping that a few droppings might fall out the back.

Its going to get dark next year.
The mouth breathers will have to find another boogeyman....quick.
'Cause it sure won't be Capt Tangerine.

And thus the modern day Trolley Problem facing non-Trump people in possession of what limited power there is to make things as least-dark as possible.

If you let the Trump Train run over the folks…well, folks die but maybe the folks watching will GET OFF THE GODDAMN TRACKS.

Conversely, the only place to divert the Trump Train is onto tracks with EVEN MORE GODDAMN FOLKS ON THEM.