trumpty plumpty

[BiggDick]

Fun takes!

I agree that the Trump-Putin relationship does smell fishy, and always has.

But I hadn't heard this theory that the Trump obsession with Greenland is urged by Putin.

I dunno about the rationale behind it, tho.

I guess it could create a sort of division among NATO. But it doesn't necessarily divide NATO, at least in the sense it dissects the NATO footprint; so much as it just shifts control of one area within the NATO footprint from one NATO country to another.

as far as "help normalize powers taking over land again," I'm not sure the U.S. taking over Greenland does much to normalize imperial land grabs at large, and particularly not land grabs for Russia.

There's also the double-edged sword of whether Russia actually benefits from urging its imperial adversary to expand its empire.

The theory I think might hold slightly more water is the same one that ends up being the case for so many imperial ambitions, and U.S. imperial ambitions in particular:

OIL!

Half of Greenland is a national park. It's the largest park in the world. And as such, oil exploration is not allowed there, even tho there's potentially shitloads of a-bubblin' crude...oil that is...black gold...Texas Tea...

If we can agree Trump is a "feeble minded, easily manipulated man," I think it's not stretch to suggest the same Evil Rich People who got our gummint to perp so many other global conflicts in the name of oil, is simply going for it once again.

[TDub]

it divides Nato because it is a Nato power taking over another Nato member causing dissent and deunification within Nato. Not because it actually physically divided nato in a geographical sense

[BiggDick]

Good distinction.

There's already some amount of "dissent and deunification within Nato." Perhaps it's not some critical mass. Maybe it would be with one Nato power taking over another Nato member - or, more specifically, another Nato member's strategically significant and resource-rich territory.

But, like you said, it does not physically divide Nato otherwise. It just shifts control of a strategically significant and resource-rich territory within the Nato footprint from one Nato member to another, more imperially ambitious and aggressive member.

From an outside imperial adversary's perspective, is the juice is worth the squeeze? I suppose we're assuming Putin thinks the "dissent and deunification within" would be significant enough that it would offset also ceding the (strategically significant and resource-rich) territory to your biggest, most ambitious, most aggressive, most powerful adversary.

I dunno.

[TDub]

a divided Nato is beneficial to Russia and China. It's why Putin was pushing so hard for US to withdraw from Nato during trumpys first term

[BiggDick]

yes, a divided Nato is beneficial to Russia and China (among much of the rest of the world, perhaps)

But again, this doesn't necessarily divide Nato, so much as it could cause dissent and deunification. If you know something more there or have more info to suggest a U.S. move on Greenland would be a net loss for Nato, please share.

Cuz, again, and like we both said, a U.S. move on Greenland does not physically or geographically divide Nato otherwise.

To mention a U.S. withdrawal from Nato, is to take this discussion in a whole new direction. I'm sure Putin would be thrilled by as much. But, a U.S. withdrawal from Nato and a U.S. expansion into a territory otherwise already within Nato are two entirely different things.

[TDub]

ok

[Sparko]

The best thing Trump can do is stand pat right now. The economy is doing well; Russia is reeling. China is in the midst of an economic debacle. Illegal immigration is way down. Someone convince him to take credit for it and play golf. . .

[BiggDick]

oh, no doubt Trump will golf.

But, if Trump keeps trying to give himself credit for "the economy is doing well," with little if any real regard for the actual economic concerns of the U.S. people at large...all I have to say about that is, that's kind of the exact same mistake Dems made in the 2024 election.

[jfish26]

ok

The next few years are gonna be a gas.

[Overlander]

Although I rarely agree with you, I’ve always seen you as one of the more reasonable people on these boards over the years. That being said, you’ve really become a miserable dick, Shirley. Yay?

Holy Fuck

Don’t worry; he didn’t supplant you at the top. You’ve just been that way all along. Way to set the standard!

I do enjoy being so deep in your thoughts.

[Shirley]

yes, a divided Nato is beneficial to Russia and China (among much of the rest of the world, perhaps)

But again, this doesn't necessarily divide Nato, so much as it could cause dissent and deunification. If you know something more there or have more info to suggest a U.S. move on Greenland would be a net loss for Nato, please share.

Cuz, again, and like we both said, a U.S. move on Greenland does not physically or geographically divide Nato otherwise.

To mention a U.S. withdrawal from Nato, is to take this discussion in a whole new direction. I'm sure Putin would be thrilled by as much. But, a U.S. withdrawal from Nato and a U.S. expansion into a territory otherwise already within Nato are two entirely different things.

So, American imperialism is a problem, unless it's to take land from another sovereign nation that happens to be a member of NATO, and then it's not?

[BiggDick]

Umm..no?

More like, American imperialism is a problem, even when it’s to take land from another sovereign nation that happens to be a member of NATO, and even if some message board hot take suggests American imperialism to take land from another sovereign nation that happens to be a member of NATO is actually some 5-D chess move by Russia, under the theory that Russia will benefit more from resulting NATO dissent and deunification enough to concede massive American imperial expansion anyway…and to the apparent exclusion of considering other factors that have otherwise proven to so often be material to the discussion of imperialism like…oil.

But, again, if you know something more there or have more info, please share.

[jfish26]

I hope - and I think - that all of the Canada/Greenland/Panama/Mexico stuff is a feint.

To distract from what’s gonna be a whole hell of a lot of promises that are not just broken, but ignored altogether. As if they were never made.

That said, following through on these expansionist noises would be to Putin’s benefit and, yes, straight from his playbook.

And I’m sad in advance that - having sampled the borscht and found it intriguing - you seem highly likely to put actual imperialist behavior on a level with what you have been convinced (wrongly, also to Putin’s benefit!) we have been doing in Ukraine.

[BiggDick]

Yeah, I’ve maintained that all the imperial expansion talk is either Trump just talking out of his ass some more, or Trump actually saying the quiet part out loud. Stay tuned, I guess.

And, if I may ask - again - what’s your info or something regarding how U.S. imperial expansion benefits our imperial foes? Is it as simple as the your opinion that maybe Putin thinks the inter-NATO dissent will be worth it enough to roll dice on an imperial foe gaining global ground anyway?

I suppose imperial expansion IS straight from Putin and Russia’s playbook. But I dunno if it does any good to point to imperial expansion as straight from Putin playbook in a way seemingly meant to distract from the fact it’s straight from the U.S. playbook as well.

(Unless we are still stuck on the narrative of good guy empires and bad guy empires and “do as we say not as we do” world views, in which case, here we still are.)

As for your last paragraph - could you please distinguish what we have been doing in Ukraine from “actual imperialist behavior?”

Because, for you to be so unwilling, and/or so unable, to even consider what we have been doing in Ukraine as yet another example of imperialism, is, I dunno…like trying to talk to a magahead who is unwilling and/or unable to understand why Trump really is a crook.

[Overlander]

Holy fuck.
Can someone shut down the power on this ride?

[DeletedUser]

Holy fuck.
Can someone shut down the power on this ride?

LOL

[BiggDick]

Holy fuck.
Can someone shut down the power on this ride?

Yea.

Next time one of the resident Cold War circle jerkers go for another Putin Parrot antagonism, bellyache about that instead.

Simple as that!

Til then, don’t blame me for wanting to not be called a Putin Parrot.

Cuz, holy fuck is right!

[KUTradition]

Holy fuck.
Can someone shut down the power on this ride?

message board asperger’s

[DeletedUser]

Starting early today.

[jfish26]

As for your last paragraph - could you please distinguish what we have been doing in Ukraine from “actual imperialist behavior?”

Happily.

In Ukraine, we have been aiding a sovereign nation in defending against an expansionist aggressor.

In using force - whether economic, military or otherwise - to (say) take Greenland as our own, we would be the expansionist aggressor.

This is only complicated if you are intensely interested in making it so.