Ayn Rand

[twocoach]

Serious question: did you do a Bar Mitzvah? Do you think the Torah has any use for you, even cultural, historical, or wisdom-wise? Just curious. Not trying to start a debate.

Yes, I did a Bar Mitzvah.
Yes, I believe the Torah has A use for me.
I don't believe I am a better (or worse) person for being Bar Mitzvahed.
I don't believe the majority of the "story" that is written in the Torah.

I have said it many times before and I will hopefully say it until the day I die, I believe religion is a wonderful positive thing for many people. I also believe religion is a terrible negative thing for perhaps an equal (if not more) amount of people.

I won't ridicule people for using their religious beliefs for positive things/aspects of their life.
I will ridicule people (including the person I love the most - my mother) for accepting things to be true that can't be proven as being true. The Bible/Torah/Koran Etc. being a major aspect/example of my feeling that way.

That's me being overly candid. I don't expect others to agree with my feelings.

I understand and respect your viewpoints.

The way I often explain it to my students is that The Bible is true in the sense that it uses storytelling to convey a set of timeless principles and what I refer to as "capital T truths" that guide our lives. Was the world created in a literal seven days? I don't know. I do know that the story conveys that God is all-powerful, creative, orderly, rational, and caring. I think the latter is vastly more important than the former. You can apply that to just about any biblical narrative.

I also believe that God doesn't expect us to check our brains at the door. People focus a lot on "love your neighbor" as meaning that we should, for example, open the floodgates to whoever wants to come in. The problem is, God is not a magic wand and is not going to magically make more room, more resources, and more economic opportunity in one part of the world to accommodate an unlimited number of people or protect us from the consequences of allowing drug cartels to run rampant. We have to use our heads and determine how many people we can accommodate and how quickly. We can (and should) be intelligent loving neighbors.

It's called "historical fiction".

[RainbowsandUnicorns]

Serious question: did you do a Bar Mitzvah? Do you think the Torah has any use for you, even cultural, historical, or wisdom-wise? Just curious. Not trying to start a debate.

Yes, I did a Bar Mitzvah.
Yes, I believe the Torah has A use for me.
I don't believe I am a better (or worse) person for being Bar Mitzvahed.
I don't believe the majority of the "story" that is written in the Torah.

I have said it many times before and I will hopefully say it until the day I die, I believe religion is a wonderful positive thing for many people. I also believe religion is a terrible negative thing for perhaps an equal (if not more) amount of people.

I won't ridicule people for using their religious beliefs for positive things/aspects of their life.
I will ridicule people (including the person I love the most - my mother) for accepting things to be true that can't be proven as being true. The Bible/Torah/Koran Etc. being a major aspect/example of my feeling that way.

That's me being overly candid. I don't expect others to agree with my feelings.

I understand and respect your viewpoints.

The way I often explain it to my students is that The Bible is true in the sense that it uses storytelling to convey a set of timeless principles and what I refer to as "capital T truths" that guide our lives. Was the world created in a literal seven days? I don't know. I do know that the story conveys that God is all-powerful, creative, orderly, rational, and caring. I think the latter is vastly more important than the former. You can apply that to just about any biblical narrative.

I also believe that God doesn't expect us to check our brains at the door. People focus a lot on "love your neighbor" as meaning that we should, for example, open the floodgates to whoever wants to come in. The problem is, God is not a magic wand and is not going to magically make more room, more resources, and more economic opportunity in one part of the world to accommodate an unlimited number of people or protect us from the consequences of allowing drug cartels to run rampant. We have to use our heads and determine how many people we can accommodate and how quickly. We can (and should) be intelligent loving neighbors.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.
I say it often, I am a very confused person by nature.
This adds to my confusion.
"So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them".
I believe every person is capable of being a good person. I believe every person is capable of being a bad person.
If God is a loving and caring God, and God created men and women to be in the "image" of him/her/it (God), why would God create man and woman with the ability to be a bad person and harm good people?

[pdub]

The beauty of Christ's message is that even without some reward, it is the best way to live. It is simple and powerful. Only disingenuousness can corrupt the message of taking care of one another and loving one's neighbor.

Christ's message? Did he write it down somewhere? Leave a voicemail?

We're being told by the Catholic Church what they want you to believe Christ's message was (if he even actually had one). This is all such made up nonsense.

Eye roll.

[twocoach]

The beauty of Christ's message is that even without some reward, it is the best way to live. It is simple and powerful. Only disingenuousness can corrupt the message of taking care of one another and loving one's neighbor.

Christ's message? Did he write it down somewhere? Leave a voicemail?

We're being told by the Catholic Church what they want you to believe Christ's message was (if he even actually had one). This is all such made up nonsense.

Eye roll.

That's my reaction to all things religion. The notion that it is some sort of historical fact is beyond eye roll.

[pdub]

Then I guess you also don't believe that Socrates actually said anything.
All made up.

[JKLivin]

Yes, I did a Bar Mitzvah.
Yes, I believe the Torah has A use for me.
I don't believe I am a better (or worse) person for being Bar Mitzvahed.
I don't believe the majority of the "story" that is written in the Torah.

I have said it many times before and I will hopefully say it until the day I die, I believe religion is a wonderful positive thing for many people. I also believe religion is a terrible negative thing for perhaps an equal (if not more) amount of people.

I won't ridicule people for using their religious beliefs for positive things/aspects of their life.
I will ridicule people (including the person I love the most - my mother) for accepting things to be true that can't be proven as being true. The Bible/Torah/Koran Etc. being a major aspect/example of my feeling that way.

That's me being overly candid. I don't expect others to agree with my feelings.

I understand and respect your viewpoints.

The way I often explain it to my students is that The Bible is true in the sense that it uses storytelling to convey a set of timeless principles and what I refer to as "capital T truths" that guide our lives. Was the world created in a literal seven days? I don't know. I do know that the story conveys that God is all-powerful, creative, orderly, rational, and caring. I think the latter is vastly more important than the former. You can apply that to just about any biblical narrative.

I also believe that God doesn't expect us to check our brains at the door. People focus a lot on "love your neighbor" as meaning that we should, for example, open the floodgates to whoever wants to come in. The problem is, God is not a magic wand and is not going to magically make more room, more resources, and more economic opportunity in one part of the world to accommodate an unlimited number of people or protect us from the consequences of allowing drug cartels to run rampant. We have to use our heads and determine how many people we can accommodate and how quickly. We can (and should) be intelligent loving neighbors.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.
I say it often, I am a very confused person by nature.
This adds to my confusion.
"So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them".
I believe every person is capable of being a good person. I believe every person is capable of being a bad person.
If God is a loving and caring God, and God created men and women to be in the "image" of him/her/it (God), why would God create man and woman with the ability to be a bad person and harm good people?

Christian doctrine would say that God is, at his essence, love. The ultimate expression of love is free will, i.e. if you have no choice but to love in return, it is not real. Thus, evil exists because God gives his creation free will as an expression of his love, and we screw it up with the choices we make.

[JKLivin]

Yes, I did a Bar Mitzvah.
Yes, I believe the Torah has A use for me.
I don't believe I am a better (or worse) person for being Bar Mitzvahed.
I don't believe the majority of the "story" that is written in the Torah.

I have said it many times before and I will hopefully say it until the day I die, I believe religion is a wonderful positive thing for many people. I also believe religion is a terrible negative thing for perhaps an equal (if not more) amount of people.

I won't ridicule people for using their religious beliefs for positive things/aspects of their life.
I will ridicule people (including the person I love the most - my mother) for accepting things to be true that can't be proven as being true. The Bible/Torah/Koran Etc. being a major aspect/example of my feeling that way.

That's me being overly candid. I don't expect others to agree with my feelings.

I understand and respect your viewpoints.

The way I often explain it to my students is that The Bible is true in the sense that it uses storytelling to convey a set of timeless principles and what I refer to as "capital T truths" that guide our lives. Was the world created in a literal seven days? I don't know. I do know that the story conveys that God is all-powerful, creative, orderly, rational, and caring. I think the latter is vastly more important than the former. You can apply that to just about any biblical narrative.

I also believe that God doesn't expect us to check our brains at the door. People focus a lot on "love your neighbor" as meaning that we should, for example, open the floodgates to whoever wants to come in. The problem is, God is not a magic wand and is not going to magically make more room, more resources, and more economic opportunity in one part of the world to accommodate an unlimited number of people or protect us from the consequences of allowing drug cartels to run rampant. We have to use our heads and determine how many people we can accommodate and how quickly. We can (and should) be intelligent loving neighbors.

It's called "historical fiction".

I prefer the term "sacred literature."

[pdub]

Christian doctrine would say that God is, at his essence, love. The ultimate expression of love is free will, i.e. if you have no choice but to love in return, it is not real. Thus, evil exists because God gives his creation free will as an expression of his love, and we screw it up with the choices we make.

This of course is silly, loophole "let's make this thing work" when it actually comes down to it.
Ultimately you can say, "God works in mysterious ways" which works better for me than the above spiel.

[BiggDick]

one of the goofiest parts about Christian doctrine is how Christian doctrine assumes God's pronouns.

[JKLivin]

one of the goofiest parts about Christian doctrine is how Christian doctrine assumes God's pronouns.

The Bible describes God as "father." Not much wiggle room there.

[JKLivin]

Christian doctrine would say that God is, at his essence, love. The ultimate expression of love is free will, i.e. if you have no choice but to love in return, it is not real. Thus, evil exists because God gives his creation free will as an expression of his love, and we screw it up with the choices we make.

This of course is silly, loophole "let's make this thing work" when it actually comes down to it.
Ultimately you can say, "God works in mysterious ways" which works better for me than the above spiel.

I think the whole question of theodicy offers unsatisfying answers, ultimately because deep down we all (myself included) feel like we are entitled to be exempt from suffering. I'm teaching a class on death and grief right now, and I struggle with those questions every day. I don't think I'll ever stop struggling with them.

[Sparko]

Rain falls on the just and unjust equally. Helping each other stay dry in a constant downpour is the meaning of life.

[twocoach]

I understand and respect your viewpoints.

The way I often explain it to my students is that The Bible is true in the sense that it uses storytelling to convey a set of timeless principles and what I refer to as "capital T truths" that guide our lives. Was the world created in a literal seven days? I don't know. I do know that the story conveys that God is all-powerful, creative, orderly, rational, and caring. I think the latter is vastly more important than the former. You can apply that to just about any biblical narrative.

I also believe that God doesn't expect us to check our brains at the door. People focus a lot on "love your neighbor" as meaning that we should, for example, open the floodgates to whoever wants to come in. The problem is, God is not a magic wand and is not going to magically make more room, more resources, and more economic opportunity in one part of the world to accommodate an unlimited number of people or protect us from the consequences of allowing drug cartels to run rampant. We have to use our heads and determine how many people we can accommodate and how quickly. We can (and should) be intelligent loving neighbors.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.
I say it often, I am a very confused person by nature.
This adds to my confusion.
"So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them".
I believe every person is capable of being a good person. I believe every person is capable of being a bad person.
If God is a loving and caring God, and God created men and women to be in the "image" of him/her/it (God), why would God create man and woman with the ability to be a bad person and harm good people?

Christian doctrine would say that God is, at his essence, love. The ultimate expression of love is free will, i.e. if you have no choice but to love in return, it is not real. Thus, evil exists because God gives his creation free will as an expression of his love, and we screw it up with the choices we make.

So it's another example of the all-powerful boss blaming all the problems of the world on the Everyman and taking no accountability themselves. Got it. No wonder evangelicals love Trump.

[BiggDick]

one of the goofiest parts about Christian doctrine is how Christian doctrine assumes God's pronouns.

The Bible describes God as "father." Not much wiggle room there.

the "wiggle room" is afforded by considering whether a bunch of translations of translations of the oral traditions of an ancient people, written down decades if not centuries after the fact, really is a reliable and authoritative enough source to determine things like, whether a supernatural deity uses pronouns in the first place.

[JKLivin]

one of the goofiest parts about Christian doctrine is how Christian doctrine assumes God's pronouns.

The Bible describes God as "father." Not much wiggle room there.

the "wiggle room" is afforded by considering whether a bunch of translations of translations of the oral traditions of an ancient people, written down decades if not centuries after the fact, really is a reliable and authoritative enough source to determine things like, whether a supernatural deity uses pronouns in the first place.

Or, one might decide that, given that the Deity is a deity, they don't really care much about pronouns and whatever we feel comfortable using is fine.

[JKLivin]

Thanks for taking the time to respond.
I say it often, I am a very confused person by nature.
This adds to my confusion.
"So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them".
I believe every person is capable of being a good person. I believe every person is capable of being a bad person.
If God is a loving and caring God, and God created men and women to be in the "image" of him/her/it (God), why would God create man and woman with the ability to be a bad person and harm good people?

Christian doctrine would say that God is, at his essence, love. The ultimate expression of love is free will, i.e. if you have no choice but to love in return, it is not real. Thus, evil exists because God gives his creation free will as an expression of his love, and we screw it up with the choices we make.

So it's another example of the all-powerful boss blaming all the problems of the world on the Everyman and taking no accountability themselves.

The entire Book of Job deals with that very issue.

[twocoach]

Christian doctrine would say that God is, at his essence, love. The ultimate expression of love is free will, i.e. if you have no choice but to love in return, it is not real. Thus, evil exists because God gives his creation free will as an expression of his love, and we screw it up with the choices we make.

So it's another example of the all-powerful boss blaming all the problems of the world on the Everyman and taking no accountability themselves.

The entire Book of Job deals with that very issue.

Is that one of the Old Testament books that people get to ignore?

[JKLivin]

So it's another example of the all-powerful boss blaming all the problems of the world on the Everyman and taking no accountability themselves.

The entire Book of Job deals with that very issue.

Is that one of the Old Testament books that people get to ignore?

No. It’s about making sense of grief and loss. Many people read it when they are trying to make sense of pain and disappointment.

[TDub]

this thread is turrible

[BiggDick]

go figure a thread about an atheist became a thread about more evidence that religion makes you dumb.