It's Game Day, Ladies and Gentlemen

[pdub]

As i've said since Hunter joined, I'd rather have Udeh and Zuby.
Zuby is averaging 14.2 and 8.2 and 2 ( blocks ) for the 20th in Kenpom team in the country.

[DeletedUser]

As i've said since Hunter joined, I'd rather have Udeh and Zuby.
Zuby is averaging 14.2 and 8.2 and 2 ( blocks ) for the 20th in Kenpom team in the country.

I understood it. I understand it still. But yes, the way it's played out, which likely ends with 0 final fours and 0 nattys in the Hunter era, I'd have rather rolled the dice on Udeh and Zuby. Knowing what we know now. Which, easy to say now. Udeh and Zuby have their issues. But other pieces would have fallen different too.

[BiggDick]

I mean, Hunter was the jewel of the portal - 2 portals ago.

Everybody wanted him.

And we didn't know until after we landed him that landing him would also mean loosing Zuby AND Udeh.

Hindsight is 20/20, tho.

I'm among the fans who questioned doubling down on Hunter this season, after last season's results kinda left something to be desired.

One narrative, last season at least, was as bad as we were last season particularly on offense, we at least had Hunter (the more offensively skilled big) over Zuby and/or Udeh (two less offensively skilled bigs)

But shit, as a junior, and again that pesky hindsight, now Zuby's putting up damn similar to Hunter numbers anyway.

[KUTradition]

pressure is definitely on HD to have a big game, on both ends

[DeletedUser]

I'm among the fans who questioned doubling down on Hunter this season, after last season's results kinda left something to be desired.

What good would kicking him off the team in the offseason have done? The mistake had been made.

There wasn't a better option in the portal. There wasn't a better unsigned option in the HS class.

Bidunga was the best HS option we had, and we got him. He's not capable of playing HDs 30mpg and Clemence certainly isn't capable of replacing what Bidunga has done.

It also would have left HD without a free transfer option i believe. And that's a really shitty way to run a program and other prospects would notice.

Force outs are one thing when the player still has options or has done something wrong.

HD was an AA. Forcing him out because we made the wrong choice 9 months earlier simply doesn't make any sense. Doesn't make us better this year, makes us worse. Doesn't help make us better next year, because that ship had already sailed.

Thankfully, we still have a chance to do something this year. It's a long shot, but it's a chance. Worse teams have made final four and won nattys that us. A final four this season really changes some legacies for guys like HD and KJ. And takes DHs to the next level.

[BiggDick]

I mean, without going back to evaluate all the potential options available in the last portal...

consider me a fan enough to view things with crimson-and-blue glasses enough to think if we effectively put a big bright "HELP WANTED" sign for our 5-spot on the portal door, we'd have some nice applicants knocking.

Come jump center for a top-ranked blue blood and a HOF coach with a very strong track record of putting bigs in the league?? That's quite the draw, right!

Now, the rest of your post kind of goes on a tangent, but...

yea, I'm also enough of a fan to appreciate no "force outs" particularly for a kid who no other options (at the college level) or has otherwise done nothing wrong (RIP Andrew White)

...especially when the kid also happens to be an AA.

[DeletedUser]

Also in regard to last season's results leaving something to be desired:

That had a lot to do with McCullar getting hurt. We were pretty good at full strength with KM HD and Furphy.

I don't think that warrants a force out. Which is essentially what you're saying when you say "not doubling down".

[twocoach]

I'm among the fans who questioned doubling down on Hunter this season, after last season's results kinda left something to be desired.

What good would kicking him off the team in the offseason have done? The mistake had been made.

There wasn't a better option in the portal. There wasn't a better unsigned option in the HS class.

Bidunga was the best HS option we had, and we got him. He's not capable of playing HDs 30mpg and Clemence certainly isn't capable of replacing what Bidunga has done.

It also would have left HD without a free transfer option i believe. And that's a really shitty way to run a program and other prospects would notice.

Force outs are one thing when the player still has options or has done something wrong.

HD was an AA. Forcing him out because we made the wrong choice 9 months earlier simply doesn't make any sense. Doesn't make us better this year, makes us worse. Doesn't help make us better next year, because that ship had already sailed.

Thankfully, we still have a chance to do something this year. It's a long shot, but it's a chance. Worse teams have made final four and won nattys that us. A final four this season really changes some legacies for guys like HD and KJ. And takes DHs to the next level.

Agree with all of this. Recruiting in the portal is fundamentally no different than recruiting HS players. You think you can see a fit but you are never certain until they get into the system and do the work. Self underestimated the impact of HD's slow footed sluggishness and what it takes for him to generate his offense. Self's system works better run through elite guards/wings than elite centers. When he has NBA guys at the 2, 3 and 4, he wins titles. When he has elite centers, they lose early. Chalmers-Rush-Arthur and Braun-Agbaji-Wilson won titles while junior season Aldrich, freshman season Embiid and every season with Dickinson were all done after the first weekend of the tourney.

[BiggDick]

Also in regard to last season's results leaving something to be desired:

That had a lot to do with McCullar getting hurt. We were pretty good at full strength with KM HD and Furphy.

I don't think that warrants a force out. Which is essentially what you're saying when you say "not doubling down".

Yea, Kevin’s injury was as big a storyline as any to last season.

It it counters, or at least provides a lot of relevant context, to the narrative about dominating the noncon but fizzling out in league play.

But about the, not doubling down - let’s realize this was and is very much a storyline much bigger than just my own comment.

We even have a “Goodbye Hunter Dickinson” thread and everything, and it’s 14 pages long!

[DeletedUser]

I mean, without going back to evaluate all the potential options available in the last portal...

consider me a fan enough to view things with crimson-and-blue glasses enough to think if we effectively put a big bright "HELP WANTED" sign for our 5-spot on the portal door, we'd have some nice applicants knocking.

Come jump center for a top-ranked blue blood and a HOF coach with a very strong track record of putting bigs in the league?? That's quite the draw, right!

...."who just forced out their AA center for seemingly no reason"...

Not quite the draw you think it is.

Like I said, there weren't better options in the portal. And I don't think the Cooper Flagg commitment switches from Duke to KU because we force out HD.


Best portal big men this offseason:

Oumar Ballo
Vlad Goldin
Jonas Aidoo
Cliff Omoruyi
Coleman Hawkins


Sorry. Just isn't a logical conclusion to determine forcing out HD (and DH and KJ) was a serious outcome to be considered.

[DeletedUser]

Not to mention the whole fact that it's entirely possible HDs NIL deal was 2 years. And if we forced him out and had to eat the money that we likely didn't have any money to pay those players I listed above (who are all worse than HD).

[pdub]

"When he has NBA guys at the 2, 3 and 4, he wins titles. When he has elite centers, they lose early."

That's an oversimplification to me.

2010 is just part of the NCAA tournament being what it is - a poor way to determine the best team. We were one of the two best teams that season and had a terrible game at the wrong time. 2010 would beat 2022 in a 7 game series. Additionally, we won the B12 regular season ( with only one loss ) and tournament which are titles.

2014 Embiid didn't even play to end the season ( probably because he didn't want to hurt his draft stock ) so big asterisk to that example.

2012 he had an elite center and we made it to the title game.
2020 he had an elite center and they were the best team in the nation ready to mow through the tourney.

[BiggDick]

I mean, considering they play the same position, KJ, and particularly KJ's established role, may have had some bearing on Cooper's decision.

But, fuck that dookie. I oh so thoroughly enjoyed KJ making him his bitch.

But my point about "best portal big men" is that my fanboy ass thinks KU and Self might be a big enough draw that someone better yet who might otherwise just stay at their current school might stop and think, "oh shit, I could go jump center for KU and Self?!"

And, like I said, without going back to evaluate all the potential options available in the last portal...in the very post you quoted...as you went on to evaluate all the potential options available in the last portal anyway...



...anyway!

so Hunter/Ernest should be a good one. What does the rest of this Frogs matchup look like?

[BiggDick]

"When he has NBA guys at the 2, 3 and 4, he wins titles. When he has elite centers, they lose early."

That's an oversimplification to me.

2010 is just part of the NCAA tournament being what it is - a poor way to determine the best team. We were one of the two best teams that season and had a terrible game at the wrong time. 2010 would beat 2022 in a 7 game series. Additionally, we won the B12 regular season ( with only one loss ) and tournament which are titles.

2014 Embiid didn't even play to end the season ( probably because he didn't want to hurt his draft stock ) so big asterisk to that example.

2012 he had an elite center and we made it to the title game.
2020 he had an elite center and they were the best team in the nation ready to mow through the tourney.

yea, it's def an oversimplification.

I often ponder the fact Self has never made a Final Four with any fewer than 3 future NBA players on the roster.

But I think even that isn't the best way to think of it.

Rather, I think Self, like any coach, just needs elite talent at the right spots, plus solid role players to compliment.

If there is a single position I think is most important to a title run, I do think it's guard. Or maybe some combo of guards, even. Or maybe even some combo guards!

I digress.

But, yea, it seems most FF teams have elite guards as much as/maybe even more than anything. The NCAA tournament is such a guard's game.

[DeletedUser]

LOL

Having the discussion you're trying to have WITHOUT going back and looking at the portal options is the height of stupidity. It's not a serious convo.

And your attempt to make it serious is "someone else might have left somewhere else"? Come on.

And another LOL at you thinking Cooper Flagg would be scared of competition with KJ for minutes (even though Flagg is a 3 or 4 and KJ plays almost no 3).

1) they'd play together.

2) even if they didn't, Flagg would beat KJ out easily.

This isn't a serious convo.

[BiggDick]

like I said, fuck that dookie. I oh so thoroughly enjoyed KJ making him his bitch.

And I'm still not sure you get my point about the gravity a starting spot at KU might have in the portal.

Or, are you trying to argue a starting spot at KU does NOT have much gravity, and that's just me being too much of a KU fanboy about it?

[pdub]

Flagg was not scared of KJ taking his minutes.
That was not a reason why he didn't come to KU.
In fact, I think if Flagg had come to KU, KJ unfortunately may have transferred.

[DeletedUser]

Which big guys do you think are better than HD that exist in college basketball this year?

Let's start there. There aren't many. There are even less that would have left where they currently are to come to KU. Especially if it was for less money.

[DeletedUser]

I'll help....

https://www.ncaa.com/news/basketball-me ... -andy-katz

[DeletedUser]

Flagg was not scared of KJ taking his minutes.
That was not a reason why he didn't come to KU.
In fact, I think if Flagg had come to KU, KJ unfortunately may have transferred.

I'd have taken Flagg at the 3, KJ at the 4 and Storr somewhere else. Happily.