Israel/Palestine

[BiggDick]

jeez, Shirley.

I don't want to be ignorant, or intellectually lazy, so please do inform me about whatever you think I'm missing.

But again, I genuinely struggle to understand why news of a president acting like a total psycho about Gaza is only news when Trump does it.

And I initially suggested not getting caught up on the semantics of, "equal," but instead, let's discuss that term. Cuz, as it turns out, any informed intellectual can realize Biden and Trump are NOT equals about Gaza.

To date, realize Biden has been much, much, much, so incredibly MUCH worse about Gaza.

Heck, Biden is a huge part of the reason Gaza was and is such a mess in the first place, and the reason Trump is even in a position to go for this fucked up "clean out" rhetoric now!

Forgive me, I am confused. I know - I am always confused.
You say, Biden is a huge part of the reason Gaza was such a mess "in the first place"?
When was the "first place" and how/why was he a huge part of the reason?

this is a good distinction, gutter. Gaza has been managed as something like an open-air prison for years now, so that is def part of the mess.

I meant "in the first place" as more specific to the post 10/7 fallout and the contemporaneous conflict in Gaza today.

Israel has destroyed most of Gaza since 10/7, rather indiscriminately, with one weapons package after another provided by Biden, as recently as earlier this month, and even despite Israel shitting all over the "red lines" Biden tried to otherwise impose.

I don't know how we can NOT blame Biden for that.

I remember during Trump part 1 people said Trump is/was the most "pro Israel" President in history.
Heck, he himself probably said it. I know he said, "No President has done more for Israel than I have".
What do you think he would have done differently from/than Biden in regards to Israel and Gaza the past year and half (and the past 4 years)?

Honestly, I think Trump would have done things similarly to Biden in the last year and a half (and the past 4 years)

I think the difference would have been less the president itself, and more the reaction among voters - board liberals would have been less likely to downplay the president's support of the aggression against Gaza, and more likely to actually exhibit concern, even if only along partisan lines.

Being that there were American Hostages that were taken, he would have been PISSED at Hamas and probably would have sent American troops in to "eliminate" them. At what cost to Gaza? I don't know. My guess is ranging from very little to complete inhalation.

In light of the last year and a half, I dunno how we can frame the actual sequence of events as something closer to "complete inhalation" regardless.

[jfish26]

More projection.

I do not know how you, with a straight face, can pretend like Biden was anything less than completely horrific for Gaza.

Anyone who is unwilling or unable to realize that, is the one living in some nonreality.

And let’s not get caught up on semantics like “equally.”

We are getting caught up on semantics like "equally" because that is an argument you made!

The sophistry is pretending Biden was any better for Gaza.

Arguing that Biden was not "any better" for Gaza is arguing that Biden was, at best, equally bad for Gaza.

If you don't like that dumbass argument criticized, simply don't make it!

But if you do choose to make that dumbass argument, don't move the goalposts as soon as you're criticized for it. And certainly do not blame others for holding you accountable for the argument that you made.

dude, "equally" is a term you went for first. I suggested we NOT get caught up on the semantics of as much.

but, okay, I'll give you "equally" too, if you want...in the sense Israel/Palestine is bigger than just a partisan issue - even if posters like you, fish, seem to only care about it when you can leverage the issue for the sake of your own partisan pearl-clutching.

As I made clear in my very last post - indeed, the one you are responding to here - "equally" came in as a no-brainer description of YOUR post.

YOU said, "The sophistry is pretending Biden was any better for Gaza."

If something is NOT "any better" than something else, then AT BEST it is equal to that other thing.

The reason this matters isn't semantical: it is that you persistently, over and over and over, make analytical errors of false equivalency.

You say that because things share features, that they are substantively the same as each other.

You do this with all sorts of things, but the most immediately obvious ones are how you allocate responsibility for the Ukraine war, and now this utterly bullshit notion that a Biden or Harris 47th presidency would not be any better for Gaza than Trump.

[BiggDick]

sigh.

Let's put it this way:

if Trump is going to achieve some measure of destruction in Gaza that is "equal" in comparison to Biden, he's got a long long way to go. I'm not sure Trump can even mathematically achieve an equal level of destruction in Gaza, tho, cuz the majority of Gaza was already destroyed while Biden was in the big chair. There's just not much left to destroy!

Rather, it's not further destruction time so much as it is more "clean up" time...not that that rhetoric or strategy is necessarily any "better."

and let's not bring Ukraine into here please. This thread is already gross enough.

[jfish26]

All of those words (which contain an exquisite exercise with goalposts!) obscure the simple point you are for whatever reason dodging: there is simply no rational argument that a Trump administration is going to do things in way more favorable to Gaza than a Biden or Harris administration would have.

[BiggDick]

umm

agreed?

but, I don't think anyone ever said, or even kind of even began to even suggest, that a Trump administration is going to do things in a way more favorable to Gaza than a Biden or Harris administration would have. I particularly don't think anyone ever said it on the boards here.

I don't know where you're getting that from. You might be getting it from out of nowhere.

But since you are getting that from somewhere, it makes me wonder if all this "goalpost" talk is just more projection yet.

[jfish26]

umm

agreed?

but, I don't think anyone ever said, or even kind of even began to even suggest, that a Trump administration is going to do things in a way more favorable to Gaza than a Biden or Harris administration would have. I particularly don't think anyone ever said it on the boards here.

I don't know where you're getting that from. You might be getting it from out of nowhere.

But since you are getting that from somewhere, it makes me wonder if all this "goalpost" talk is just more projection yet.

Add "projection" to the list of words that are easier to use than to know how to use.

[BiggDick]

dude, don't accuse me of moving goalposts if, in the exact same post, you're going to switch to some argument no one's ever made anyway.

[jfish26]

dude, don't accuse me of moving goalposts if, in the exact same post, you're going to switch to some argument no one's ever made anyway.

You said, "The sophistry is pretending Biden was any better for Gaza."

Do you really want to try to scurry into a hole and say that this was NOT an equivalency?

Maybe we could make this easier: Gaza's prospects, from 1/20/25-1/20/29, would be less bad under (a) Biden or Harris, (b) Trump, or (c) N/A (equally bad).

Check the box.

[BiggDick]

(c)

like I said, the only real difference is Trump saying the quiet part out loud.

[jfish26]

Ok. You are wrong (in both conclusion and process), but at least you're being direct about it.

[BiggDick]

Today in, "Clean out..."

wait, not today, this was actually from 2023!

But this time, the United States seems to be mobilizing political and financial support for Israeli transfer schemes. On October 11, U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken confirmed that the United States was working with Egypt and Israel to create a “humanitarian corridor” in the Sinai for Palestinian civilians fleeing Gaza. Then on October 20, the White House sent Congress an official funding request to “address potential needs of Gazans fleeing to neighboring countries.” President Joe Biden has since stated that he recognizes the importance of preventing Palestinian displacement. But as one analyst noted, the funding request was a clear indication that the Biden administration was giving Israel a “green light” to carry out ethnic cleansing.

https://carnegieendowment.org/sada/2023 ... za?lang=en

[BiggDick]

Ok. You are wrong (in both conclusion and process), but at least you're being direct about it.

huh?

[DeletedUser]

Slow Monday Ousdahl?

My god, you're arguing with everyone in multiple threads. There have to be better way to pass the time.

[BiggDick]

illy, have you ever noticed you stop by the pols board really not to participate in pols discussions, so much as you mostly just to make personal comments about me?

[DeletedUser]

illy, have you ever noticed you stop by the pols board really not to participate in pols discussions, so much as you mostly just to make personal comments about me?

Personal comments like:

come on PDub, don't be such an illy here.

We've already got illy for that!

You're desperate for the attention.

[KUTradition]

Jews were initially lied to when they were put on trains to the concentration camps…told they were temporarily being relocated, and would be able to return their homes

[BiggDick]

exactly.

And, sorry if I offended you, illy.

[RainbowsandUnicorns]

jeez, Shirley.

I don't want to be ignorant, or intellectually lazy, so please do inform me about whatever you think I'm missing.

But again, I genuinely struggle to understand why news of a president acting like a total psycho about Gaza is only news when Trump does it.

And I initially suggested not getting caught up on the semantics of, "equal," but instead, let's discuss that term. Cuz, as it turns out, any informed intellectual can realize Biden and Trump are NOT equals about Gaza.

To date, realize Biden has been much, much, much, so incredibly MUCH worse about Gaza.

Heck, Biden is a huge part of the reason Gaza was and is such a mess in the first place, and the reason Trump is even in a position to go for this fucked up "clean out" rhetoric now!

Forgive me, I am confused. I know - I am always confused.
You say, Biden is a huge part of the reason Gaza was such a mess "in the first place"?
When was the "first place" and how/why was he a huge part of the reason?

this is a good distinction, gutter. Gaza has been managed as something like an open-air prison for years now, so that is def part of the mess.

I meant "in the first place" as more specific to the post 10/7 fallout and the contemporaneous conflict in Gaza today.

Israel has destroyed most of Gaza since 10/7, rather indiscriminately, with one weapons package after another provided by Biden, as recently as earlier this month, and even despite Israel shitting all over the "red lines" Biden tried to otherwise impose.

I don't know how we can NOT blame Biden for that.

I remember during Trump part 1 people said Trump is/was the most "pro Israel" President in history.
Heck, he himself probably said it. I know he said, "No President has done more for Israel than I have".
What do you think he would have done differently from/than Biden in regards to Israel and Gaza the past year and half (and the past 4 years)?

Honestly, I think Trump would have done things similarly to Biden in the last year and a half (and the past 4 years)

I think the difference would have been less the president itself, and more the reaction among voters - board liberals would have been less likely to downplay the president's support of the aggression against Gaza, and more likely to actually exhibit concern, even if only along partisan lines.

Being that there were American Hostages that were taken, he would have been PISSED at Hamas and probably would have sent American troops in to "eliminate" them. At what cost to Gaza? I don't know. My guess is ranging from very little to complete inhalation.

In light of the last year and a half, I dunno how we can frame the actual sequence of events as something closer to "complete inhalation" regardless.

You have referred to Gaza as an "open air prison" in the past.
My co-worker who visited Gaza shortly before 10/7/23 probably begs to differ but I get what you mean and you aren't necessarily wrong - to a degree. If you feel the citizens of Gaza not free to leave the country which equates to being imprisoned, then I’m not saying two wrongs make a right, but Egypt is partially if not equally to blame for that. Right?

I fully admit my ignorance in regards to how much bearing Biden had or didn’t have on day to day operations in Gaza pre 10/7/23.

I don’t know that Israel has destroyed “most" of Gaza but I do know Israel destroyed a very large and significant portion/s of Gaza.
I don’t know if the majority of damage was done with “weapons packages” "provided by Biden" but I have little doubt a substantial amount of damage was done with some of the “weapons packages” “provided by Biden”. You of course realize that Congress had a say and played a role in “providing” Israel with the "weapons packages”.
“We” can blame Biden but as I just said, “we” need to blame Congress for it too if we are going to blame Biden.

I don’t know what Trump would or wouldn’t have done but I think Trump just might have been tougher on Hamas (and "Gaza"). If that’s even possible.
I hope you realize I am not someone who “downplayed” the aggression against Gaza but I am someone who has said war is hell and people suffer - and that Hamas fully knew that Israel would retaliate - and has a very strong “army” backed by the USA - and that didn't matter to them - that their country and its citizens would greatly suffer the consequences. Hey, to them (Hamas) martyrism is bliss. Right?

I’m not sure I understand your last sentence - unless you meant can’t frame instead of can frame?
This is where we get in to the genocide debate - and I see/hear both sides of the debate. To me, a lot has to do with how people define genocide and how it pertains to what Israel has done and why - but to me there is a difference between wanting to eliminate Hamas (which Israel has failed to do and probably will never completely do in my life time) and wanting to eliminate Gaza and all of its citizens.
Pre 10/7/23 Gaza received shit tons of international money and “aid” from… Biden and the USA.

Look at these photos. I personally took the first 3. Thank God I didn't take the 4th.

This was Gaza in November of 2010.



This was in Gaza - provided by Israel - for the citizens of Gaza.



This is Sderot.



I say.... It is 100% HORRIFIC what many of the citizens of Gaza have endured - and there are some horrendous things that have been shown to the world.

This is HORRIFIC to me being that this is also Sderot. October of 2023.
I drove by that same exact spot while riding a shuttle bus to take me to a school that is named in honor of a girl who lost her life saving her little brother from a "rocket" launched from Gaza right near that school in early 2000. Her name was Ella Abuksis. I met and spoke with her father. He told me her story.
Everybody who has died in the name of "the conflict" (or whatever the fuck anyone wants to call it) had a story. Gazan, Israeli, all of them. Fuck "war"

[BiggDick]

damn. Honestly, if you told me that last pic was taken in Denver, I'd believe you.

I've heard "open air prison" in the sense Gaza has been walled in, citizens are not free to leave, it is/was patrolled very aggressively by Israeli forces, including random raids and brutality and such. I saw somewhere that many/most children born in Gaza in recent years have never seen the Mediterranean Sea...even though Gaza is right fucking there on the Mediterranean Sea. But, I'm no expert, so it's very valid to add "to a degree" to the comment that I'm not necessarily wrong.

As for Egypt being to blame, one thing I keep hearing is Egypt's reluctance to accept Palestinian refugees is in large part some paradoxical expression of solidarity with the Palestinian people. Egypt knows that if Palestinians flee, they prob aren't gonna get to return.

I don't know, either, exactly how much responsibility Biden should have for Gaza, pre- or post-10/7. But I think it's a lot, regardless, like every other president pretty much since the creation of the nation of Israel as we know it today.

yea Congress deserves blame too, but also realize how many headlines we've seen since 10/7 like, "Biden sidesteps Congress, again, to deliver yet another weapons package to Israel."

sorry, that last "framing" sentence is not phrased well. I mean, we've already seen Gaza be pretty much inhaled, I think I mean, annihilated?

re: genocide, I think a conclusion should be drawn from Israel's response. While I think we can all agree eliminating Hamas is a perfectly understandable goal, I dunno if the means justify the ends. If some neighbor kids TP'd your house and you knew they live in some of the other houses on the block, it's not appropriate to burn down the entire block in retaliation. (that's not a perfect analogy but hopefully you get the gist)

I posted Biden's final media interview as POTUS in the war thread. He even told Bibi it's not appropriate to rack up civilian body count in pursuit of Hamas! And yet, even though that's precisely what Israel has done, Biden kept giving them more and more weapons anyway.

I honestly think the goal here has been not just to get Hamas, but to clean out Gaza all along.

finally, let me agree with you gutter when you say, fuck war.

[RainbowsandUnicorns]

damn. Honestly, if you told me that last pic was taken in Denver, I'd believe you.

I've heard "open air prison" in the sense Gaza has been walled in, citizens are not free to leave, it is/was patrolled very aggressively by Israeli forces, including random raids and brutality and such. I saw somewhere that many/most children born in Gaza in recent years have never seen the Mediterranean Sea...even though Gaza is right fucking there on the Mediterranean Sea. But, I'm no expert, so it's very valid to add "to a degree" to the comment that I'm not necessarily wrong.

As for Egypt being to blame, one thing I keep hearing is Egypt's reluctance to accept Palestinian refugees is in large part some paradoxical expression of solidarity with the Palestinian people. Egypt knows that if Palestinians flee, they prob aren't gonna get to return.

I don't know, either, exactly how much responsibility Biden should have for Gaza, pre- or post-10/7. But I think it's a lot, regardless, like every other president pretty much since the creation of the nation of Israel as we know it today.

yea Congress deserves blame too, but also realize how many headlines we've seen since 10/7 like, "Biden sidesteps Congress, again, to deliver yet another weapons package to Israel."

sorry, that last "framing" sentence is not phrased well. I mean, we've already seen Gaza be pretty much inhaled, I think I mean, annihilated?

re: genocide, I think a conclusion should be drawn from Israel's response. While I think we can all agree eliminating Hamas is a perfectly understandable goal, I dunno if the means justify the ends. If some neighbor kids TP'd your house and you knew they live in some of the other houses on the block, it's not appropriate to burn down the entire block in retaliation. (that's not a perfect analogy but hopefully you get the gist)

I posted Biden's final media interview as POTUS in the war thread. He even told Bibi it's not appropriate to rack up civilian body count in pursuit of Hamas! And yet, even though that's precisely what Israel has done, Biden kept giving them more and more weapons anyway.

I honestly think the goal here has been not just to get Hamas, but to clean out Gaza all along.

finally, let me agree with you gutter when you say, fuck war.

I appreciate being able to have respectful dialogue with you. Better than "bombing" each other.

I don't know if you are talking pre 10/7/23 or if you are talking present day in regards to your post above. Unless I specifically refer to "now" I will assume pre 10/7/23 with my responses.

* True, most citizens are not "allowed" to leave.
* I don't know about in the interior but I assume on the exterior (on the Israeli border) it is patrolled aggressively by Israeli forces - but...... Notice none can be seen in my 1st photo.
* I don't know about random raids and brutality. I'm not saying it didn't happen but I am saying I don't know.
* Most children in Gaza are fucked as much if not more by their own people as much as they are fucked by Israel. Do they see the Mediterranean? I don't know. Of course the USA is much bigger but I am going to guess there is a significant percentage of children who have never seen the Atlantic or Pacific.

* I can read (and have read a LITTLE bit) about why Egypt doesn't open its border. Yes, there seems to be "some paradoxical expression of solidarity" but that makes me wonder if that's why Trump doesn't want Mexicans in this country.
* I pointed out that Biden and Congress gave "aid" to Gaza pre 10-7-23. Responsibility - Blame, credit, Biden, all other Presidents, I think there is plenty to go around.

* You have used the TPing and setting fire/s to houses analogy multiple times.
You aren't going to get an argument from me in regards to EXCESSIVE responses but I might give a little kick back in regard to "appropriate" responses. I'm wondering if what occurred on August 6th 1945 and then August 9th 1945 didn't happen, what would the world look like today?

* Kudos to Biden for telling Bibi "it's not appropriate to rack up civilian body count in pursuit of Hamas"!
Damn Biden for giving Israel more and more weapons anyway. Well, unless Israel became under a greater threat from Lebanon, and Syria, and Iran, and ___?___. Then I am all for the USA supplying Israel with as many weapons as possible.

* I don't know what the final goal was and now is - in the minds of Bibi, Biden, Trump, and if we get in to conspiracy theories, the billionaires who control the world.
Seems that there has been more success in "cleaning out" Gaza than there has been in eliminating Hamas so you might be on to something. So does that mean Israel has failed more or succeeded more in "the war" and what is/was "the war" really all about?
Where is randy to tell us Hamas was in cahoots with Israel and the USA all along?