Israel/Palestine

[jfish26]

'it seems like all roads lead back to something to the effect of, "vote for democracy no matter who," but please do correct me if I am mistaken."

Now you get it.

Exactly.

As I said last fall (careful, ous, this isn't consistent with the story you tell about my position), if you would have presented me these two candidates exactly as they were, only it was Harris who would have king-like powers and Trump who would be subject to our laws, I would have voted for Trump.

[BiggDick]

okay. sure!

but, since we are where we are now, I think it's time for Dems to come up with some new way to try and win votes going forward.

[MICHHAWK]

shouting at. name calling. is the strategy. it was the strategy in 20. it was the strategy in 24.

it has worked half the time.

[jfish26]

okay. sure!

but, since we are where we are now, I think it's time for Dems to come up with some new way to try and win votes going forward.

You are on a road trip.

The needle is hovering over E, and you are also painfully hungry.

You pass a blue sign advertising two gas stations at an upcoming exit. That sign also says NEXT EXIT 38 MILES.

Upon closer look, one of the gas stations is fuel-only, and the other has no shop and only an In-N-Out.

"Fuck those In-N-Out weirdos and their Christian nationalist worldview," you say to yourself as you pass the exit by.

30 miles later, your car craps out.

Now you've got a $1,300 fuel pump bill and an 8-mile walk. You're still painfully hungry. In fact at this point you will starve to death if you do not eat today.

You make it 7.9 miles and can see a single business at the exit. It is a Chik-Fil-A.

If you're lucky, it's not a Sunday and you're only going to suffer the indignity of forking over cash to Christian nationalists, on top of a $1,300 fuel pump repair bill and an 8-mile walk.

Did you act responsibly?

[KUTradition]

until the money issue is resolved (citizens united), a vote for a 3rd party candidate is a wasted vote, merely for the fact that they’ve got zero legitimate chance to win

i personally put a whole hell of a lot of blame on west and stein (less for their short-sighted voters) for not seeing the writing on the wall sooner and supporting one of the two candidates that actually had a legit shot at winning

[KUTradition]

i’ll also add that there should be a level of civic duty/responsibility among voters to actually educate themselves and not relay on info from the likes of reddit or justfacts.com…

…or twitter, or fb, or insta….

[jfish26]

until the money issue is resolved (citizens united), a vote for a 3rd party candidate is a wasted vote, merely for the fact that they’ve got zero legitimate chance to win

i personally put a whole hell of a lot of blame on west and stein (less for their short-sighted voters) for not seeing the writing on the wall sooner and supporting one of the two candidates that actually had a legit shot at winning

I would feel significantly different about a 3rd party vote in a world where the two major-party candidates are more or less equivalent on things like, you know, democracy.

[BiggDick]

but, again, just trying to be as practical as possible here.

If Democrats cannot win elections with this "democracy" sort of rhetoric they campaigned on so heavily, shouldn't they be scrambling for something else to win with yet?

not to mention the irony of how quickly dems went from the "Trump is a threat to democracy" sort of talking points, to "Welcome Back Donny"

[BiggDick]

until the money issue is resolved (citizens united), a vote for a 3rd party candidate is a wasted vote

this seems so paradoxical. I dunno if a vote cast for one of the big-money candidates is going to do a thing to resolve the money issue.

It also seems so grim. Unless we can resolve the money issue by way of voting, and in particular for a candidate with some election reform platform (so very likely NOT one of the big money candidates), then how else, exactly, are we supposed to resolve this?

[BiggDick]

okay. sure!

but, since we are where we are now, I think it's time for Dems to come up with some new way to try and win votes going forward.

You are on a road trip.

The needle is hovering over E, and you are also painfully hungry.

You pass a blue sign advertising two gas stations at an upcoming exit. That sign also says NEXT EXIT 38 MILES.

Upon closer look, one of the gas stations is fuel-only, and the other has no shop and only an In-N-Out.

"Fuck those In-N-Out weirdos and their Christian nationalist worldview," you say to yourself as you pass the exit by.

30 miles later, your car craps out.

Now you've got a $1,300 fuel pump bill and an 8-mile walk. You're still painfully hungry. In fact at this point you will starve to death if you do not eat today.

You make it 7.9 miles and can see a single business at the exit. It is a Chik-Fil-A.

If you're lucky, it's not a Sunday and you're only going to suffer the indignity of forking over cash to Christian nationalists, on top of a $1,300 fuel pump repair bill and an 8-mile walk.

Did you act responsibly?

holy shit man.

In this totally allsome analogy, I'd just stop and eat In-N-Out. But I'm not sure this analogy works here.

or, if this analogy DOES work, and if the only plan Dems have is nothing more than to cross their fingers and hope American voters might feel desperate enough to actually choose In-N-Out, even in the wake of a majority of voters electing to instead roll the dice on making it to Chik-Fil-A, well...

at some point I think Dems might do themselves a favor to ask why they can't get more folks to eat these burgers.

[jfish26]

If Democrats cannot win elections with this "democracy" sort of rhetoric they campaigned on so heavily, shouldn't they be scrambling for something else to win with yet?

How can you ask this question with a straight face and NOT think that voters bear blame here?

[Shirley]

I go ride my bike for a couple of hours and come home to this.

And what's even worse, I read it all.

Excellent allegory re democracy, "issue voters", and hi way exits, fish.

[defixione]

Obviously, democracy did not appeal to BD when he cast his vote. That was the only issue in this election.

[BiggDick]

If Democrats cannot win elections with this "democracy" sort of rhetoric they campaigned on so heavily, shouldn't they be scrambling for something else to win with yet?

How can you ask this question with a straight face and NOT think that voters bear blame here?

I mean, sure, of course voters bear blame here. We apparently agree there.

I just think Dems bear an awful lot of blame here too! We apparently do NOT agree on this one, do we?

I mean, maybe voters thought all the "democracy" messaging came across as kinda hollow. We've had an awful lot of "most important election of our lifetimes" kind of talking points fed to us over the years. Maybe they thought the democracy rhetoric was legit, but also weighed it against all the other Dem messaging that came across as hollow. Either way, let's assume this election really was a fight for literal democracy, with Dems on the side of democracy. And yet, Dems lost anyway!

if MAGA really is fascism and the only thing we have to stand in the way of fascism is Dems and dems just got their butts kicked anyway, then Dems need to either rethink a lot here, or we need to just finally come out and admit Dems are apparently useless against fascism, and a bunch of loosers with two Os.

[jfish26]

If Democrats cannot win elections with this "democracy" sort of rhetoric they campaigned on so heavily, shouldn't they be scrambling for something else to win with yet?

How can you ask this question with a straight face and NOT think that voters bear blame here?

I mean, sure, of course voters bear blame here. We apparently agree there.

I just think Dems bear an awful lot of blame here too! We apparently do NOT agree on this one, do we?

I mean, maybe voters thought all the "democracy" messaging came across as kinda hollow. We've had an awful lot of "most important election of our lifetimes" kind of talking points fed to us over the years. Maybe they thought the democracy rhetoric was legit, but also weighed it against all the other Dem messaging that came across as hollow. Either way, let's assume this election really was a fight for literal democracy, with Dems on the side of democracy. And yet, Dems lost anyway!

if MAGA really is fascism and the only thing we have to stand in the way of fascism is Dems and dems just got their butts kicked anyway, then Dems need to either rethink a lot here, or we need to just finally come out and admit Dems are apparently useless against fascism, and a bunch of loosers with two Os.

This question is a symptom of your selective reading. Of your consistent pattern of finding, in others' posts, what seems to give you an opening to say whatever it is you want to say, regardless of whether you are actually responding to what was said.

Because, I said, just this morning for example:

Do the Dems deserve blame for lots of things? Yes. Among many other things (and limiting to the 2024 cycle only), they should have been clearer-eyed on Biden's weakness and non-viability as a candidate, and then they should not have watered down the Harris/Walz potion when it appeared to have the needed strength.

You even responded to this, specifically!

You KNOW that I do not disagree with you that "Dems bear an awful lot of blame here too," and yet it was important to you for some reason to come back and tell me that I said something different than that.

[DeletedUser]

Every topic. Every day.

Fish, you have an unbelievable amount of patience.

[MICHHAWK]

it’s the other way around.

[BiggDick]

lol mich!

[BiggDick]

Do the Dems deserve blame for lots of things? Yes. Among many other things (and limiting to the 2024 cycle only), they should have been clearer-eyed on Biden's weakness and non-viability as a candidate, and then they should not have watered down the Harris/Walz potion when it appeared to have the needed strength.

You even responded to this, specifically!

You KNOW that I do not disagree with you that "Dems bear an awful lot of blame here too," and yet it was important to you for some reason to come back and tell me that I said something different than that.

Indeed I did respond. Part of my response was asking you to clarify what you meant about the Harris/Walz position being watered down, and I'm not sure you ever did.

I came back because we still haven't really fleshed out what dems do deserve blame for (like the question on potions), but rather you came back to how much you want to blame voters instead. Several times, in fact.

But just generally, I think the solution going forward is less to get caught on this reactive blame-and-shame against voters, and more some more proactive "how CAN this political party win voters back?"

bonus points if any points end up relevant to this thread.

cuuuuz speaking of this thread - you gotta realize how silly it sounds for a candidate and party to be like, "why do voters make such a big deal about the issues that matter to them! Why won't they instead just make a bigger deal about the issues we tell them to make a a big deal about!"

Rather, this party would MUCH better serve itself to say something like, "hey maybe voters might like us more if we make a bigger deal about the issues they make a big deal about."

and, once again, I'd like to thank you for your patience.

[DeletedUser]

I feel like we've heard all of this before. Several times.