Shoe money trial

[jfish26]

I’m not gathering a stake and tinder yet, but just saying hypothetically...
Can I sue Bill Self if he defrauded KU and I paid for a rule-following team to follow? If a coach knew about it, then it is the coach doing the defrauding rather than a shoe company.

I think I read on the back of my ticket stub "You get what you get and you don't throw a fit".

No, that's not ticket stubs, that's scholarship paperwork.

[jfish26]

Seems like folks are looking at the nuances here an missing the big picture. There is proof Self was discussing recruits with Adidas folk and knowledgeable of the fact they were trying to influence recruits. [1]

Forget what is actually ethically right/wrong - it doesn't matter. Whether or not the rules make sense doesn't matter. We're here because we're fans of the Kansas basketball program. It operates under the rules of the NCAA, like it or not. The NCAA doesn't need to abide by legal rules - it doesn't matter if you're guilty beyond a shadow of doubt, it just matters what the NCAA says. [2]

Given what we now know, there is a decent chance that last year's final four will be vacated, [3] but it goes way beyond that. We're talking post-season ban this year. [4] Forget the "other teams are all doing it" talk - we're the ones that have been explicitly implicated.

I don't think any of this is ethically right - but man, that's what it's looking like is going to happen.

I always say that the great thing about being a college basketball fan is that the cold months when you don't want to leave the house are bearable because we have college basketball. This is going to make winter really, really suck.

1. That's putting a lot of pressure on the word "influence." Of course I believe that Self knew the substance of what was going on. I haven't seen enough to say that the NCAA has enough to do anything about it.

2. Not entirely true. There will be plaintiff's lawyers lining up around the side of Allen Fieldhouse to take KU's case if the NCAA does anything based on evidence developed in this criminal trial, or punishes unevenly or seemingly arbitrarily.

3. Maybe? I still think commercial, and not legal, ethical or moral, concerns will guide how all of this is resolved. And, with Nike still pretty much left out of this, it would be a commercial disaster to start swinging the hammer at power programs now (because it means there will be absolutely nothing left after you've done what you need to do with Nike).

4. Nope. Based on what we know right now, I don't see that happening at all. It certainly will not happen this year, as the government has asked the NCAA to hold off on any enforcement actions during the pendency of this trial and the related trials (which won't be done until the middle of next year).

[Geezer]

It's $2500 for online courses.
Calm down.

[Deleted User 75]

It's $2500 for online courses.
Calm down.

LOL are you being serious?

[jfish26]

Coach K shows what college basketball's elite thinks about hoops corruption trial

https://sports.yahoo.com/coach-k-shows- ... 01836.html

“I think it’s minute,” Coach K said of the tales of payouts, influence peddling and bags of cash testified about in the federal fraud trial of two sneaker executives and one would-be agent. “It’s a blip. It’s not what’s happening.”

A blip? It’s not what’s happening?

This is ridiculous and absurd and, well, most of all disappointing because this is exactly what’s happening.

[...]

Maybe, somehow, someway Krzyzewski’s status is so great [that guys like Gassnola] never get to his level … no one would dare to ask him or approach him. Hey, good for him. But his peers live in a different world. Rick Pitino and Bill Self have had their name dragged across this trial – and they’re national champions and hall of famers too.

If Krzyzewski doesn’t know better then he should have come to New York over the past few weeks and listened first-hand about how this is not a blip, how the professed amateurism of the sport that’s made him fabulously rich and fabulously famous is a sham.

That he’s playing the Iraqi Information Minister bit that seems to have become popular with the upper echelons of college athletics is beneath him. Krzyzewski is better than this, smarter than this, more rooted in reality than this. He’s West Point for crying out loud, not someone prone to Roy Williams’ Mayberry-babe-in-the-woods routine or Mark Emmert’s head-in-the-sand act.

[...]

If he doesn’t think Duke’s affiliation with Nike plays a part [in K's recruiting], he’s absolutely lost his mind.

Last year Duke was led by Marvin Bagley III, who played AAU ball not for an established team, but one created just for him, coached and operated by his father, and sponsored by Nike. It was good business for Nike, they got their logo plastered on the player. It also allowed the shoe company to pay the Bagleys whatever it wanted through the NCAA-legal channels of an AAU team. Adidas has done the same with other players.

Good for them. Nike, for sure. And the Bagleys as well. When it came time to choose a college for their one year before entering the NBA draft (Bagley was the No. 2 pick in June), maybe they chose Duke because of Duke. Maybe they chose Duke because of Coach K. Or maybe a family from Arizona chose Duke, at least just a little bit, of the swoosh. Or maybe a lot of bit.

That’s what’s on trial here.

[...]

Through their own hard work and talent, these kids have built brands that can impact the purchasing decisions of other kids. Companies are eager to tap into that. To pretend otherwise is naive. To expect the NCAA’s concept of amateurism to rule the day is to expect the wheels of capitalism to grind to a stop. Sorry, not going to happen. This is still the United States of America.

Yet Krzyzewski isn’t pointing that out. He’s isn’t standing up for the players and their families. Heck, he’s not even giving a full-throated, if ill-advised, defense of amateurism. At least that would be something. Instead he’s telling everyone the truth isn’t the truth.

Krzyzewski didn’t come listen to court though. Neither did his athletic director or conference commissioner or NCAA president or anyone else with any say about how college sports works. If he wanted, he could have not only pulled up some bench inside the Moynihan Federal Courthouse, but summoned everyone in power to come with him and educate themselves on what’s really going on. Mark Emmert. John Swofford. Jim Delany. Whomever.

“We haven’t followed it that much,” Coach K said of the trial.

Of course not.

Mike Krzyzewski, the great Mike Krzyzewski, who is way too smart for this, who is way too strong for this, is just going with the status quo and claiming that a federal trial and under-oath testimony and FBI wiretaps are just nothing, nothing at all.

[Geezer]

It's $2500 for online courses.
Calm down.

LOL are you being serious?

Completely.

[Deleted User 75]

It's $2500 for online courses.
Calm down.

LOL are you being serious?

Completely.

Yikes.

So all these kids are getting money to get funneled to certain schools, but Kansas only gets involved if the money goes to education? Lmao. You know that sounds completely ridiculous, right?

This guy is literally admitting he pays players to go to Kansas. There are text messages with Self. He is brought into late night in the phog as a brand "ambassador". He meets with our staff to discuss recruits....this is pretty obvious what's going on...but by all means stick your head back in the sand and wait for the dust to settle so you can go back to thinking all the other schools cheat but not Kansas. We'd never do what calipari and coach K do!

[jfish26]

Perhaps the gap here is that Geezer is identifying anything that has been developed enough to be tied to KU, and the rest is speculation (albeit, in my opinion, reasonable and straightforward speculation).

[twocoach]

LOL are you being serious?

Completely.

Yikes.

So all these kids are getting money to get funneled to certain schools, but Kansas only gets involved if the money goes to education? Lmao. You know that sounds completely ridiculous, right?

This guy is literally admitting he pays players to go to Kansas. There are text messages with Self. He is brought into late night in the phog as a brand "ambassador". He meets with our staff to discuss recruits....this is pretty obvious what's going on...but by all means stick your head back in the sand and wait for the dust to settle so you can go back to thinking all the other schools cheat but not Kansas. We'd never do what calipari and coach K do!

It's doesn't matter what is happening. It matters what the ncaa can prove happened. As of now, no one has even proven that DeSousa's guardian received $2,500, just that some has claimed to have given it to him.
And certainly no one has proven that KU was involved in it. Innuendo doesn't mean shit when lawyers are involved. Prove it or fuck off should be KU's defense.

[Geezer]

Nobody gets put on probation over speculation.
Do the shoe companies throw money at AAU programs, absolutely. Would they prefer their high profile players attend their sponsored Universities, absolutely.
Are the coaching staffs actively involved with the payments to coaches, handlers, runners, families?
That has not been shown in our case.

[Deleted User 75]

Completely.

Yikes.

So all these kids are getting money to get funneled to certain schools, but Kansas only gets involved if the money goes to education? Lmao. You know that sounds completely ridiculous, right?

This guy is literally admitting he pays players to go to Kansas. There are text messages with Self. He is brought into late night in the phog as a brand "ambassador". He meets with our staff to discuss recruits....this is pretty obvious what's going on...but by all means stick your head back in the sand and wait for the dust to settle so you can go back to thinking all the other schools cheat but not Kansas. We'd never do what calipari and coach K do!

It's doesn't matter what is happening. It matters what the ncaa can prove happened. As of now, no one has even proven that DeSousa's guardian received $2,500, just that some has claimed to have given it to him.
And certainly no one has proven that KU was involved in it. Innuendo doesn't mean shit when lawyers are involved. Prove it or fuck off should be KU's defense.

Sure, legally speaking. Prove it or fuck off works in regard to legal action against our staff.

But the Ncaa rules aren't laws and don't have to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Eligibility and program punishment isn't decided in a court of law. It's decided in an Ncaa conference room and they can do whatever they want (as they've shown numerous times).

[Deleted User 75]

Are the coaching staffs actively involved with the payments to coaches, handlers, runners, families?
That has not been shown in our case.

So your stance is unless Self knows the exact dollar amount and initiates the wire transfer himself then we are "not actively involved"?...I hope that's the stance the ncaa takes, but it won't be.

This isn't some dirt bag trying to ruin Self. In fact Gasnolla appears to like Self and seems to be protecting him and our staff as much as he possibly can. He says we are unaware of payments. He says he can't remember phone conversations.

[Geezer]

Now you're being silly.

[Deleted User 75]

You're right. What was I thinking. Poor us. Self and KU are the victims and have been defrauded!

[Deleted User 83]

You're right. What was I thinking. Poor us. Self and KU are the victims and have been defrauded!

Now you're talkin'!

[Deleted User 75]

I'm sorry, but if you read those text strings and don't think Self knew exactly what was going on then I think you're being willfully ignorant.

Why on earth would Self thank Gatto for recruits committing if he didn't know what was going on? Come on now. We are all smart enough to see what's going on.

It doesn't make KU a bad program or Self a bad person. It's just how it works. Refusing to accept reality will only result in some of our fans looking foolish. Let's not drift into UK-ish bizarro land where everyone cheats but us. It's clear we aren't squeaky clean. It's not the end of the world. Ncaa may not even do anything. And since none of our coaches were arrested then I imagine we stayed away from the part of this that actually broke laws.

[pdub]

I'm not sure Self knew 100% what was going on but maybe had an idea of the whole process and kept vague and distanced just in case something like this busted open.

It's a bummer.

[NewtonHawk11]

I'm sorry, but if you read those text strings and don't think Self knew exactly what was going on then I think you're being willfully ignorant.

Why on earth would Self thank Gatto for recruits committing if he didn't know what was going on? Come on now. We are all smart enough to see what's going on.

It doesn't make KU a bad program or Self a bad person. It's just how it works. Refusing to accept reality will only result in some of our fans looking foolish. Let's not drift into UK-ish bizarro land where everyone cheats but us. It's clear we aren't squeaky clean. It's not the end of the world. Ncaa may not even do anything. And since none of our coaches were arrested then I imagine we stayed away from the part of this that actually broke laws.

I don't agree with you often, Illy, but this is spot on.

KU just got caught. It's been discovered that this is a pretty common practice, but no top program other than L'Ville and Zona has had any trace to them, yet. There is now a direct link between Self, Gatto and Gasnolla. With Self saying "That's how this works."

[Deleted User 75]

I'm not sure Self knew 100% what was going on but maybe had an idea of the whole process and kept vague and distanced just in case something like this busted open.

It's a bummer.

So even though Jay Bilas came out and said this is common knowledge and that it's been going on since he played at Duke, you think Self is dumb enough to somehow not know this goes on?

Self thought maybe those Adidas guys just helped by saying how great Kansas and Self are to those recruits?

[pdub]

I think he knows/knew something was happening behind the scenes but distanced himself from the operations, allowing other people down the pipeline to get things done.