Where TF is the Impeachment Inquiry Thread?

[chiknbut]

That was quick.

[ousdahl]

It wouldn't surprise me a bit to learn that the search history in Cruz's and Rubio's offices today include the term "primary filing deadlines."

today, lulz

because only now did Lyin' Ted and Little Marco realize that potus might be trouble.

[DCHawk1]

so assuming the House impeaches, how do you expect the Senate to handle it?

It's hard to say. Trump has not shown even the slightest inclination so far to be willing to mount a defense of any sort. If he were looking to escape conviction and then win a second term, he would be doing everything completely the opposite of what he's done. If he were looking to become a martyr and die for the cause (whatever that is), he'd be doing exactly what he's doing.

Of course, it's Trump. So any attempts to predict anything are useless.

that's good insight into Trump.

how do you expect the Senate to handle it?

Will they make a good faith effort to be objective triers of fact? Or will they march in line with Trump and his direction, as unpredictable as it may be?

The Senate will do what the Senate was always going to do: look at the polls and decide if they can get rid of him or not.

Lindsey Graham doesn't defend Trump because he loves him. He doesn't tie himself in knots because he thinks Trump is Reagan reincarnated. He does it because he knows Trump is exceptionally popular in South Carolina.

If this moves the dial against Trump, then the Republican Senate will follow suit. If it doesn't, then they won't.

[Deleted User 89]

more interesting to me than what the senate does, is how the GOP electorate responds should senate pubs have a “coming to god” moment and flip the script, going against all indication up to this point (as evidenced by nunes, jordan, etc.)

[DCHawk1]

It wouldn't surprise me a bit to learn that the search history in Cruz's and Rubio's offices today include the term "primary filing deadlines."

today, lulz

because only now did Lyin' Ted and Little Marco realize that potus might be trouble.

It's not about whether he is in trouble. It's about whether GOP voters think he's in trouble. Plus, they probably would have deferred to Haley before today.

[DCHawk1]

more interesting to me than what the senate does, is how the GOP electorate responds should senate pubs have a “coming to god” moment and flip the script, going against all indication up to this point (as evidenced by nunes, jordan, etc.)

You have it backwards.

Not to be overly cynical -- particularly about the party that nominally represents my interests -- but there is very little "honor" in Washington. Ben Sasse, maybe. But other than that, it's poll-watching that will determine how this goes for the GOP.

[Deleted User 89]

more interesting to me than what the senate does, is how the GOP electorate responds should senate pubs have a “coming to god” moment and flip the script, going against all indication up to this point (as evidenced by nunes, jordan, etc.)

You have it backwards.

Not to be overly cynical -- particularly about the party that nominally represents my interests -- but there is very little "honor" in Washington. Ben Sasse, maybe. But other than that, it's poll-watching that will determine how this goes for the GOP.

i get that, and almost replied to your post above mine that it’s truly sad

and maybe/likely i’m just now realizing that there is very little honor or integrity in washington

i wonder what McCain would have to say about all of this. and i know Mittens has his own flaws, but at least he’s voiced concerns

sad that Al Franken fell on his sword...he seemed like one with integrity

[ousdahl]

so I guess the real question is, how much will GOP voters tolerate?

it's crazy that after all this shit, and regardless of anything he has or hasn't done before or since getting elected, Trump is still the guy who republicans had been waiting for.

of all presidents to set up a shadow state department and bribe a foreign gummint to interfere in our elections for personal gain, just thank the lord it wasn't a democrat!

Could you even imagine?

[DCHawk1]

Hard to tell with McCain. You'd probably have to have this take place in a different context and with respect to a different president. If it had been about Trump, he would be leading the charge to remove -- although it would have been more a personal matter than anything else. I can tell you that no one held grudges better.

[Leawood]

Sondland may be this hearing's John Dean.

[chiknbut]

[DCHawk1]

so I guess the real question is, how much will GOP voters tolerate?

it's crazy that after all this shit, and regardless of anything he has or hasn't done before or since getting elected, Trump is still the guy who republicans had been waiting for.

of all presidents to set up a shadow state department and bribe a foreign gummint to interfere in our elections for personal gain, just thank the lord it wasn't a democrat!

Could you even imagine?

I'm still kind of amazed, after four years of Trump dominating the political scene, that there's still so much that people don't understand about his appeal. This isn't partisan -- or at least not exclusively partisan. This is about something else altogether. It's about rebellion against, hatred for, and fear of "the establishment," particularly in the GOP.

In 2016, JD Vance put it this way:

My anger sprang, not from a difference over policy, but from somewhere more primal. I wanted, as Walt Whitman might say, to sound my “barbaric yawp over the roofs of the world.” Whatever I thought about Jeb’s education plan or record as governor, he had touched a raw cultural nerve. His defense of his brother ignored and insulted the experiences of people like me, and he was proud of it.

In an instant, I became Trump’s biggest fan. I wanted him to go for the jugular. I wanted him to inquire whom, precisely, George W. Bush had kept safe. Was it the veterans lingering in a bureaucratic quagmire at the Department of Veterans Affairs or the victims of 9/11? Was it the enlistees from my block back home, who signed their lives on the dotted line while Jeb’s brother told the country to “go shopping” — something kids like me couldn’t afford to do?

Though Trump held his fire in the debate, he lit into George W. Bush on social media and in interviews afterwards. Other candidates defended the former president. They, too, failed to understand Trump’s appeal, how something so offensive to their political palate could be cathartic for millions of their own voters....

I quickly realized that Trump’s actual policy proposals, such as they are, range from immoral to absurd. But as a Marine Corps veteran who grew up in a struggling Rust Belt town, I understand why many adore him — why I, if only briefly, cheered him on. He tells America’s rich and powerful precisely what we wish we could tell them ourselves: that many of the things they view as accomplishments suck for people like us....

Trump’s voters, instead, wear an almost existential sense of betrayal.

THIS is the fine line Cocaine Mitch is trying to walk. How do I avoid alienating Trump voters while remaining a creature of the Swamp? It's not an easy line to walk, and impeachment won't make it any easier. Trump's voters are going to see this as the establishment's revenge (which is a big part of the reason why the process matters, sorry).

[Deleted User 89]

from where i’m sitting, tho, the swamp has only gotten swampier...just with a different horrid smell

and i’m sorry, but if one can’t see that (based on the current drama, or by nearly all of trump’s appointments), then they are either of low intelligence, or are fully biased by immigration/racism, having a “conservative” SCOTUS, or some other singular issue, to the point that they really don’t care what trump does outside of that issue

[chiknbut]

from where i’m sitting, tho, the swamp has only gotten swampier...just with a different horrid smell

and i’m sorry, but if one can’t see that (based on the current drama, or by nearly all of trump’s appointments), then they are either of low intelligence, or are fully biased by immigration/racism, having a “conservative” SCOTUS, or some other singular issue, to the point that they really don’t care what trump does outside of that issue

I think DC's point is that Trump represents a "gut feeling" to a lot of disenfranchised voters, specifically in the GOP. Most of whom have chosen to sit out the Presidential process for a long time.

The swamp has, without a doubt, become swampier. It was never going to get un-swampy.

[jfish26]

Literally the only thing that has mattered, and that will matter after today, is whether McConnell feels the Senate majority is threatened. Doesn't matter what else comes out.

[ousdahl]

thanks for the dialogue, DC (and everyone else)

I get Trump's appeal, in the general sense of a non-establishment candidate.

I guess what's less clear is how he was able to establish himself as the anti-establishment candidate even though he is in so many was just as much of a rich shady asshole as any "establishment" guy. Dude isn't some average joe who grew up on Main Street, he's just another silver spoon big urban coastal elite. Dude didn't earn it through hard work so much as he was handed it, and even then, he fucked it up over and over again.

So what about that was appealing?

Could it be the prideful ignorance, shameless bigotry, and fragile self-victimization somehow combined with petty machismo? Perhaps that, more than any anti-establishment swamp draining, is what GOP voters love?

I mean if voters REALLY wanted someone who tells America’s rich and powerful precisely what we wish we could tell them ourselves: that many of the things they view as accomplishments suck for people like us...., then why not support one of the far left loons?

[DCHawk1]

from where i’m sitting, tho, the swamp has only gotten swampier...just with a different horrid smell

and i’m sorry, but if one can’t see that (based on the current drama, or by nearly all of trump’s appointments), then they are either of low intelligence, or are fully biased by immigration/racism, having a “conservative” SCOTUS, or some other singular issue, to the point that they really don’t care what trump does outside of that issue

Of course it has. But in order to understand Trump, you have to place him in context, a context I think very few here would agree with.

Let me try it this way: Trump is neither the start of the rebellion against the establishment nor its end. "Hope and change" was the start of the rebellion. And the end, my heavens, the end will be much worse than Trump.

[DCHawk1]

I mean if voters REALLY wanted someone who tells America’s rich and powerful precisely what we wish we could tell them ourselves: that many of the things they view as accomplishments suck for people like us...., then why not support one of the far left loons?

They did that. And instead, they got the most status quo and the most pro-Wall Street president in modern history.

[chiknbut]

from where i’m sitting, tho, the swamp has only gotten swampier...just with a different horrid smell

and i’m sorry, but if one can’t see that (based on the current drama, or by nearly all of trump’s appointments), then they are either of low intelligence, or are fully biased by immigration/racism, having a “conservative” SCOTUS, or some other singular issue, to the point that they really don’t care what trump does outside of that issue

Of course it has. But in order to understand Trump, you have to place him in context, a context I think very few here would agree with.

Let me try it this way: Trump is neither the start of the rebellion against the establishment nor its end. "Hope and change" was the start of the rebellion. And the end, my heavens, the end will be much worse than Trump.

Hey, leave Joe Walsh out of this, pal!

[Deleted User 89]

from where i’m sitting, tho, the swamp has only gotten swampier...just with a different horrid smell

and i’m sorry, but if one can’t see that (based on the current drama, or by nearly all of trump’s appointments), then they are either of low intelligence, or are fully biased by immigration/racism, having a “conservative” SCOTUS, or some other singular issue, to the point that they really don’t care what trump does outside of that issue

Of course it has. But in order to understand Trump, you have to place him in context, a context I think very few here would agree with.

Let me try it this way: Trump is neither the start of the rebellion against the establishment nor its end. "Hope and change" was the start of the rebellion. And the end, my heavens, the end will be much worse than Trump.

you’ve made this point before, and it’s one that i agree with - symptom, not cause

imo, the problem is that now it’s incredibly difficult for your “average joe” to become an elected official on the national level, at least not without getting their feet wet in the swamp

politicians on the national level are either corrupt (loose use of the term) or they become so during the process

i’ve said before, the people who are actually best-suited to do such jobs want nothing to do with it precisely for this reason. in order to get elected (or stay elected), it seems you have to do some ethically/morally questionable things