This week in feminism...

[Deleted User 295]

I think it's also true that if BOTH parents work FULL TIME 8-5 that it'd sure be hard to raise kids well. Kids are awake at what 7am and in bed by 8pm? That's 4 total possible hours of parenting and let's be real, a lot of that time is spent preparing them for the day/night.

Me and my wife have found a balance. She hasn't sacrificed her career by any means, but has carefully chosen opportunities that are flexible. She does therapy individual and family sessions at night a few days a week once I'm home....and also does group therapy in schools a few days a week during the day, but is done in time to drop off and pick up our daughter from school...I've also passed up opportunities to make more money because my current job allows me to be flexible hours wise. That way I can drop my daughter off 1 day a week at school and pick her up 1 day a week from school on the days my wife's schedule doesn't allow.

I'd rather have slightly less money and be happy than have more money and see my kids/wife less.

I also don't want a daycare raising my children for the majority of the hours they're awake when they're young (before school age).

[DCHawk1]

Pay better attention....

The discussion was people working full time AND raising kids as SINGLE PARENTS....or at least I think it was before it started to spiral.

Before you get all defensive, try working on your reading comprehension.

That's actually NOT what he wrote. That's NOT what the conversation was about:

And, let's also keep in mind that there are shitloads of women who have children/raise families and have careers. There are trad-offs, like you said, but lots of people are successful on both fronts.

A: I don't agree. Most people who are raising children and working full time are not doing a great job at raising their children. This includes men too. This is why a 2 parent home where one of them stays home for the first developmental years is so important.

That's CLEARLY about two-parent households.

[Deleted User 295]

That comment was mentioning 2 parent full timers. Earlier ones weren't.

I addressed that above too.


(Plus I just wanted to fling shit all over two coach because he rolled in here being a douchebag and only reading half the comments of the convo...like usual)

[Deleted User 104]

I was mostly implying that these were single parents, because single parents are the ones who have to do the daunting task of working full time and taking care of kids. But I was also talking about marriages where both wife and husband work full time. Both of those situations are not ideal to raise a child in the early stages. Once they are older in school, it's a a little different situation.

How did you get the idea I was only talking about 2 parent households?

[chiknbut]

That comment was mentioning 2 parent full timers. Earlier ones weren't.

I addressed that above too.


(Plus I just wanted to fling shit all over two coach because he rolled in here being a douchebag and only reading half the comments of the convo...like usual)

So..., pay better attention?

[Deleted User 295]

I don't know about all the other stuff said, but I stand by this...

In households where BOTH parents work FULL TIME I think it's very difficult to raise children effectively. There's only 24 hours in a day.

[Deleted User 295]

That comment was mentioning 2 parent full timers. Earlier ones weren't.

I addressed that above too.


(Plus I just wanted to fling shit all over two coach because he rolled in here being a douchebag and only reading half the comments of the convo...like usual)

So..., pay better attention?

come on man!

[Deleted User 104]

I don't know about all the other stuff said, but I stand by this...

In households where BOTH parents work FULL TIME I think it's very difficult to raise children effectively. There's only 24 hours in a day.

Exactly, but people on here would never admit you're right just because they don't like you. People take this place way too seriously sometimes. I'm just here for open, honest discussions, but few are receptive to it.

[Deleted User 295]

Although, this should be in a parenting thread and not the feminism thread.

I don't think it has to be the woman. It wasn't in my family...my dad was the more flexible 1 who did drop offs and pick ups and soccer practice.

In my family (adult life) my wife and I have talked about switching the roles, but I don't think I would do nearly as good of a job as she does. It's not a gender thing necessarily, it's individuals, but she's much better at a lot of the parenting things... we're also very lucky that my parents are retired so when they go to my mom she's teaching them their ABCs, numbers, writing, reading...and is personally invested in the children in a way that day cares simply can't possibly be.

We're very lucky. Not everyone has that luxury and there isn't a day that goes by that I'm not thankful/grateful that my kids get such great care every single day.

[DCHawk1]

There is nothing in the social sciences that comes closer to the idea of "settled science" than the idea that two-parent homes are better for kids than single-parent homes. This has been documented in every way imaginable for decades. That's not to say that single parents can't do a fine job or that some children aren't better off being away from one of their parents. Obviously, many do and many are. But as a general rule, a two-parent household is usually better, if for no other reason than single-parent households are far likelier to be households in which poverty plays a role.

So...if we're talking about the benefit of two-parent households vs. single-parent households, you're not exactly breaking any news.

If you are talking about single-parents who work full time not being ideal parents -- as both you and Illy say you are -- then what alternative do you offer them? You want them to work part-time and fall further into poverty? Do you want more generous welfare benefits to compensate for parents taking more time to spend with kids? What, precisely, are you trying to say? And what are you after?

As for one parent staying home with the kids in a two-parent household, I think most people would tell you that that's ideal as well, although with some caveats. The most important of those
being that it's not always practicable. I would guess that the number of households where a mother could stay home when her children are young but chooses NOT to do so in order to further her career is actually far smaller than you seem to believe.

[Deleted User 104]

Oh come on DC, you should know the answer. Prevention. Don't get yourself into the situation to begin with. Men should not marry illogical women, and women should not marry playboys. Now if it's too late for that, then you just have to struggle and do the best you can.

I will share that nearly everyone on my street growing up had a 2 parent household where the wife stayed home until the children were in middle school. They all wanted to go that path, as they wanted to be parents and spend time with their children.

I disagree with your first statements too. There are actual studies that show kids from single parent households are more likely to commit crime or be a victim of it. Girls are much more likely to get pregnant as a teen in a single mother home situation.

[twocoach]

Don't you think that women, even more than you, are acutely aware of the fact that they have a limited time in which to have children?

A: Some are, but a lot are not. How do I know this? I've known of several friends who dated women who waited too late to have children and regretted it. It's heartbreaking to hear this if you care about others. A lot of women are just born to be mothers and they realize it too late.

Lots of people can't have children biologically. They often choose to adopt. So there's also that option.

A: Yes, and it's a great thing to do. However, some people do prefer to pass on their own genes and would rather raise their own offspring.

Like I said, I'm on board with not shaming women into having careers if they really want to raise children instead. But, what you're doing is dangerously close to becoming the same thing, which is, shaming women out of careers and into raising a family.

A: Not sure how you equate giving important advice to women as being "dangerous". I think it's dangerous to be uneducated on these things and find out too late that you cannot live your dream of having your own kids. I have not shamed or implied that I want to shame anyone for their decisions -- I simply want them to be aware of the trade-offs.

I think we should let women decide for themselves what they want to do in terms of career and family.

A: I never said they shouldn't have that right. But they need to be aware of the dangers and consequences of their choices.

And, let's also keep in mind that there are shitloads of women who have children/raise families and have careers. There are trad-offs, like you said, but lots of people are successful on both fronts.

A: I don't agree. Most people who are raising children and working full time are not doing a great job at raising their children. This includes men too. This is why a 2 parent home where one of them stays home for the first developmental years is so important.

Go fuck yourself with this "most people raising children and working full time are not doing a great job raising their kids" nonsense. You have no clue what "most" people are doing. Dont pretend that the 10 couples you know that have kids are an accurate subsection of the parenting population of this country.

The vast majority of parents that we deal with via our kids are parents where both parents work and the vast majority of us have healthy, active kids who are achieving at a high rate. Maybe you just have loser friends.

Pay better attention....

The discussion was people working full time AND raising kids as SINGLE PARENTS....or at least I think it was before it started to spiral.

Before you get all defensive, try working on your reading comprehension.

I work full time. I have 2 kids. If I didn't have my wife I'd be doing a terrible job at raising my kids by myself OR (maybe AND) I'd be doing a terrible job at my job.

Kid had a snow day today. If I didn't have a wife who works more or less part time (probably close to full time hour per week wise, but doesn't work Monday until after I'm home from work or Fridays at all) I'd have been screwed today. Either taking off work or leaving a 6 and 3 year old home alone (which I'd never do).

Maybe you think you could do it all alone, but I think you're wrong. Single parents have a hard job. Parenting is alot. You know that. It takes 2, especially with multiple kids.

There is not one mention of single parenting anywhere in any of Lobsters posts. Feral posted one article about a single mother and that has been the extent of the "discussion"on single parenting by a working parent.

[Deleted User 295]

I just wanted you to go back and read everything since you've been busy at work all day.

[Deleted User 104]

Okay, I didn't say it, but it was obviously implied in this statement:

"Most people who are raising children and working full time are not doing a great job at raising their children. This includes men too. This is why a 2 parent home where one of them stays home for the first developmental years is so important."

[twocoach]

Oh come on DC, you should know the answer. Prevention. Don't get yourself into the situation to begin with. Men should not marry illogical women, and women should not marry playboys. Now if it's too late for that, then you just have to struggle and do the best you can.

I will share that nearly everyone on my street growing up had a 2 parent household where the wife stayed home until the children were in middle school. They all wanted to go that path, as they wanted to be parents and spend time with their children.

I disagree with your first statements too. There are actual studies that show kids from single parent households are more likely to commit crime or be a victim of it. Girls are much more likely to get pregnant as a teen in a single mother home situation.

So you have had conversations with all of the people on your street from when you grew up and have confirmed that all of these women "wanted to go that path"? Yeah, Iam calling BS on that one as well. You haven't. And Isuspect that if you did that you would find some women who simply dodnt have the opportunity to pursue their career dreams, either due to societal pressures like your nonsense, more limited educational opportunities, and/or less career opportunities that paid well enough to justify working and paying for whatever additional care was necessary.

And 40 years ago,it was not nearly as socially acceptable for men to cut out of work early to participate in the lives of their children. My dad wasn't in the delivery room when I was born. My dad wasn't the one who made meals, picked us up at school, etc.... Now, I do a lot of this stuff because I can and I want to.

[Deleted User 295]

Maybe I did totally misinterpret his original comment as meaning single parents (although he said above I read it correctly). If so, My bad. I didn't go to KU so my reading comprehension is not as good as the Sarah Robinsons and such.


The 2 parents working full time part is accurate though. Like I said. 4 hours a day isn't enough to raise your kids well....like DC pointed out its simply not possible for some people and isn't something to feel guilty about if that's just reality.

[Deleted User 104]

Oh come on DC, you should know the answer. Prevention. Don't get yourself into the situation to begin with. Men should not marry illogical women, and women should not marry playboys. Now if it's too late for that, then you just have to struggle and do the best you can.

I will share that nearly everyone on my street growing up had a 2 parent household where the wife stayed home until the children were in middle school. They all wanted to go that path, as they wanted to be parents and spend time with their children.

I disagree with your first statements too. There are actual studies that show kids from single parent households are more likely to commit crime or be a victim of it. Girls are much more likely to get pregnant as a teen in a single mother home situation.

So you have had conversations with all of the people on your street from when you grew up and have confirmed that all of these women "wanted to go that path"? Yeah, Iam calling BS on that one as well. You haven't. And Isuspect that if you did that you would find some women who simply dodnt have the opportunity to pursue their career dreams, either due to societal pressures like your nonsense, more limited educational opportunities, and/or less career opportunities that paid well enough to justify working and paying for whatever additional care was necessary.

And 40 years ago,it was not nearly as socially acceptable for men to cut out of work early to participate in the lives of their children. My dad wasn't in the delivery room when I was born. My dad wasn't the one who made meals, picked us up at school, etc.... Now, I do a lot of this stuff because I can and I want to.

But what do you know about me and where I grew up? You can speculate all you want, but it's pointless as you don't know anything about me. And yes, they really did say they "wanted to be mothers", just as many people in my personal circle have.

[twocoach]

Okay, I didn't say it, but it was obviously implied in this statement:

"Most people who are raising children and working full time are not doing a great job at raising their children. This includes men too. This is why a 2 parent home where one of them stays home for the first developmental years is so important."

It by no means implies that. It could be comparing a 2 parent family where both parents work outside the home vs. a 2 parent family where one parent doesnt work outside the home.

If it said "Most people who are raising children ON THEIR OWN and working full time are not doing a great job at raising their children" and it would mean that. And I'd still call it an ignorant assumption.

[Deleted User 104]

Maybe I did totally misinterpret his original comment as meaning single parents (although he said above I read it correctly). If so, My bad. I didn't go to KU so my reading comprehension is not as good as the Sarah Robinsons and such.


The 2 parents working full time part is accurate though. Like I said. 4 hours a day isn't enough to raise your kids well....like DC pointed out its simply not possible for some people and isn't something to feel guilty about if that's just reality.

It was obvious. People selectively ignore or pretend they didn't get the point just because they are angry at me for past comments.

[twocoach]

Oh come on DC, you should know the answer. Prevention. Don't get yourself into the situation to begin with. Men should not marry illogical women, and women should not marry playboys. Now if it's too late for that, then you just have to struggle and do the best you can.

I will share that nearly everyone on my street growing up had a 2 parent household where the wife stayed home until the children were in middle school. They all wanted to go that path, as they wanted to be parents and spend time with their children.

I disagree with your first statements too. There are actual studies that show kids from single parent households are more likely to commit crime or be a victim of it. Girls are much more likely to get pregnant as a teen in a single mother home situation.

So you have had conversations with all of the people on your street from when you grew up and have confirmed that all of these women "wanted to go that path"? Yeah, Iam calling BS on that one as well. You haven't. And Isuspect that if you did that you would find some women who simply dodnt have the opportunity to pursue their career dreams, either due to societal pressures like your nonsense, more limited educational opportunities, and/or less career opportunities that paid well enough to justify working and paying for whatever additional care was necessary.

And 40 years ago,it was not nearly as socially acceptable for men to cut out of work early to participate in the lives of their children. My dad wasn't in the delivery room when I was born. My dad wasn't the one who made meals, picked us up at school, etc.... Now, I do a lot of this stuff because I can and I want to.

But what do you know about me and where I grew up? You can speculate all you want, but it's pointless as you don't know anything about me. And yes, they really did say they "wanted to be mothers", just as many people in my personal circle have.

I dont have to know anything about you as it has nothing to do with you. I am merely stating that I do not believe that you actually asked this question of all of the mothers on your childhood block.

My wife also has always "wanted to be a mother". But that isnt the same as "ONLY wanting to be a mother" and not having any desires to pursue professional career opportunities and goals. That's just more assuming.