NBA 24/25

[pdub]

But in my opinion he is AT LEAST equally (with the titular front office) responsible for his Lakers consistently being 1-3 pieces short (to say nothing of his responsibility for which pieces ARE there)

Oof.
Not me.

[ousdahl]

how do we reconcile:

"blame the Lakers for not getting the right team around LeBron more than LeBron"

- with -

"the power he and his agency exude over L.A.’s personnel decisions"

"meddler extraordinaire"

"not a chance in the world that any material decision the Lakers have made during Bron's time there, was actually made against his will..."

?

[TDub]

you dont

[pdub]

We do not.
It is a matter of opinion we disagree on.*

*Tdub beat me to it

[DeletedUser]

I don't think wanting a top 5 player to take the vet minimum is reasonable to expect of a player.

Has any player done that in any sport? Brady may have taken less than max, but he didn't take 50% of market did he?

[jfish26]

But in my opinion he is AT LEAST equally (with the titular front office) responsible for his Lakers consistently being 1-3 pieces short (to say nothing of his responsibility for which pieces ARE there)

Oof.
Not me.

I think what's really happening here is that Bron is married to an organization that is just as short-sighted and fickle as he is.

[jfish26]

I don't think wanting a top 5 player to take the vet minimum is reasonable to expect of a player.

Has any player done that in any sport? Brady may have taken less than max, but he didn't take 50% of market did he?

I would agree that it's an unreasonable thing to expect.

[jfish26]

We do not.
It is a matter of opinion we disagree on.*

*Tdub beat me to it

Right. The relative balance is...what we're talking about.

[jfish26]

One of the ironies of this conversation is that - acknowledging but not getting stuck in the mud here - one of the three pillars of the most recent dynastic iteration of the Lakers was acquired by trading AWAY a known commodity and developing the trade return into an all-timer (who was, for a very long time, a cheap (half-priced) partner to the other, expensive all-timer on those teams).

[ousdahl]

so I guess then you think LeBron/his agency does NOT exude power over personnel decisions, and/or does not meddle, and/or there's a chance the Lakers are making material decisions against his will?

I'm generally of the opinion that Lebron has basically been his own de facto GM, likely more than any other player in any other sport ever, beginning no later than The Decision.

I just don't see the Lakers brass sitting Lebron down and saying, "we think the teammates you hand pick can kinda suck so we're just gonna start buddying you up with guys we pick unilaterally, and without any input from you." And/or I dunno if the brass sitting Bron down and saying as much is the solution to the Lakers' woes.

I think I agree, tho, that maybe both player and franchise are prone to short-sighted fickleness.

[pdub]

Errr...kind of cryptic.
Are we talking about Anthony Davis here?

[jfish26]

Errr...kind of cryptic.
Are we talking about Anthony Davis here?

No, not talking about the one title the Lakers have won since Operation Iraqi Freedom wound down.

[pdub]

I'm generally of the opinion that Lebron has basically been his own de facto GM, likely more than any other player in any other sport ever, beginning no later than The Decision.

And I don't think this...certainly not to the level LeBron haters love to amplify it.
I think any cornerstone superstar in decent standing with their franchise gets to have input, at least a voice in the matter, with big acquisitions in todays NBA.

And even if this is the case, LeBRoN iS gM!OMG!, then I still put the blame on the actual GM for not doing their job.

This is a distant analogy ( lolz away ) but when I was coaching U12 soccer I had a kid who was probably top 15 in our league ( 2 kids actually but one wasn't an asshole ). This kid insisted that he only wanted to play forward - but I switched our formation to only having 1 forward and felt he was better suited a midfield. He said he wouldn't play. OK then, you can sit with me on the bench.

Second half rolled around and he wanted to play.

Sometimes you gotta just do your job and if your job is to put the right team together and you don't, that's on you, not your player.

[jfish26]

so I guess then you think LeBron/his agency does NOT exude power over personnel decisions, and/or does not meddle, and/or there's a chance the Lakers are making material decisions against his will?

I'm generally of the opinion that Lebron has basically been his own de facto GM, likely more than any other player in any other sport ever, beginning no later than The Decision.

I just don't see the Lakers brass sitting Lebron down and saying, "we think the teammates you hand pick can kinda suck so we're just gonna start buddying you up with guys we pick unilaterally, and without any input from you." And/or I dunno if the brass sitting Bron down and saying as much is the solution to the Lakers' woes.

I think I agree, tho, that maybe both player and franchise are prone to short-sighted fickleness.

You seem to be responding again to both pdub and me.

[ousdahl]

I'm generally of the opinion that Lebron has basically been his own de facto GM, likely more than any other player in any other sport ever, beginning no later than The Decision.

And I don't think this...certainly not to the level LeBron haters love to amplify it.
I think any cornerstone superstar in decent standing with their franchise gets to have input, at least a voice in the matter, with big acquisitions in todays NBA.

And even if this is the case, LeBRoN iS gM!OMG!, then I still put the blame on the actual GM for not doing their job.

This is a distant analogy ( lolz away ) but when I was coaching U12 soccer I had a kid who was probably top 15 in our league ( 2 kids actually but one wasn't an asshole ). This kid insisted that he only wanted to play forward - but I switched our formation to only having 1 forward and felt he was better suited a midfield. He said he wouldn't play. OK then, you can sit with me on the bench.

Second half rolled around and he wanted to play.

Sometimes you gotta just do your job and if your job is to put the right team together and you don't, that's on you, not your player.

yea, that does seem distant, cuz I kinda don't think your point is more something about the solution to the Lakers woes is they need brass to tell Lebron he's either gonna play a position he doesn't wanna play or sit on the bench.

I guess the question/s should be something like,

- what flaws were there in previous Lebron-led Lakers (or other franchise) seasons that proved to be obstacles toward titles?*

- what, learning from all that and looking forward, can be done toward seasons that are more likely to yield rings?


is it depth? is it need more shooters? is it need more bigs? Is it need an on-ball dood who can let Lebron operate off it? Is it off-ball doods who can let Lebron operate on it? Is it maybe little more than bad timing with injuries to key personnel?

AD seems like as good a complimentary player as you're gonna get, I think. Is it finding that elusive third option?

Is it getting the right collection of doods to buy into, and execute, the right offensive and defensive schemes?






*like for real wasn't there a year or two in there the Lebron-led lakers gave a shitload of money to Russell Westbrook?

[pdub]

It's depth. It's shooters. It's off-ball dudes.
AD is freaking great. No notes.
It's a third star who doesn't hog usage and 3 and D guys.

The Russell Westbrook was a fuckup of major proportions. I blame that on management.
No, I don't think LeBron is management - but i'm not absolving him from influencing management.

[ousdahl]

So if you blame that on management, and don’t absolve Lebron from influencing management, then Lebron prob deserves blame too, even if by proxy or something.

[pdub]

Oh hey:

viewtopic.php?p=415002#p41500

"No doubt.
I still blame the Lakers MORE.
That does not mean I do not blame LeBron."

[DeletedUser]

The Russell Westbrook was a fuckup of major proportions. I blame that on management.
No, I don't think LeBron is management - but i'm not absolving him from influencing management.

This.