Kansas Crimson

easy there Adolf, now you're just parroting third reich talking points again.

(see how frustrating this is?)

in all seriousness, I'm aware that your family had to endure the tragedy of the Holocaust, and am sorry for it.

I guess what I struggle to understand is why the descendant of holocaust survivors and non-survivors would also somehow exhibit such a lack of concern for the rise of far right nazi ethno-fascism in Europe once again, and that your and my tax dollars are helping to arm them.

And again, I think Putin's rhetoric is bullshit. But again, even if it is bullshit, it's still not a good look for Zelensky to validate Putin's bullshit rhetoric anyway by showing up to Greek parliament with a nazi alongside.

TDub wrote: ↑Tue Apr 12, 2022 9:46 am should the world standing by and let Putin ravage and rape and haul away Ukrainian civilians? Spray them with sarin?

because that's the option you appear to be suggesting.

what's your excuse now.....now that Russia has said its not really about nazis.....or did you not read that article?

if you enjoy gaslighting this much, boy have I got a bar in north Lawrence for you!

not gaslighting...using your words

Nazism has been on the decline in Ukraine, not on the rise. Again, the timing of your outrage indicates either ignorance or it's entirely to defend Putin.

I'll take your word it's the former.

Where is your evidence that the guy talking to Greek Parliament was a Nazi? He was referring to the Russians as Nazis, and not in a positive way.

you keep going back and hammering the Nazi angle.....I provided an article where Russian foreign minister says it isn't and wasn't about Nazis.

Did you read it? Of course not, you dont actually give a shit, you just want to spew nonsense that the hippie chick Peonia Sunrise told you over a bowl in the parking lot.

You're gonna change the world Q...just keep asking questions and ignoring answers...you'll get there.

And, I am very sensitive to the rise of Nazi-ism in Europe. Which makes me even more sensitive to people hijacking that actual problem to try to justify war and killing.

leave Peonia Sunrise out of this! Besides, she said her healing crystals have helped her chakra align to foster world peace any day now.

Of course the Russian bullshit about nazis was just that - bullshit. Just like I've maintained all along!

so why are you using Russia as your source regarding the issue of nazism in Ukraine?

Mjl wrote: ↑Tue Apr 12, 2022 10:12 am Nazism has been on the decline in Ukraine, not on the rise.

if so, good news!

Could I ask for a link or other source to verify?

ousdahl wrote: ↑Tue Apr 12, 2022 10:20 am

Mjl wrote: ↑Tue Apr 12, 2022 10:12 am Nazism has been on the decline in Ukraine, not on the rise.

if so, good news!

Could I ask for a link or other source to verify?

They're in this thread, you ignored them

so you do or don't believe the nazi thing ? thats been the pillar of your argument for weeks.


either way, you're either arguing just to argue and being intentionally obstinate or incredibly dense.

I dont have the patience to continue.

Mjl wrote: ↑Tue Apr 12, 2022 10:22 am

ousdahl wrote: ↑Tue Apr 12, 2022 10:20 am

Mjl wrote: ↑Tue Apr 12, 2022 10:12 am Nazism has been on the decline in Ukraine, not on the rise.

if so, good news!

Could I ask for a link or other source to verify?

They're in this thread, you ignored them

forgive me if I'm not finding them now. Would you please so kindly refer me again?

TDub wrote: ↑Tue Apr 12, 2022 10:27 am so you do or don't believe the nazi thing ? thats been the pillar of your argument for weeks.


either way, you're either arguing just to argue and being intentionally obstinate or incredibly dense.

I dont have the patience to continue.

I do think there's a problem with far right extremism in Ukraine, including some fucked up flavors of neo-nazi fascist ethno-nationalism.

I do think that the Putin rhetoric to "de-nazify" Ukraine is just that, only rhetoric, and is mostly just ancillary to his real goals:

a good old fashioned Cold War-style cock measuring contest.

I'll get no shortage of shit for this one, but: consider the views of the Ukrainian people. And not just one but all of them. It's a diverse place. What if parts of eastern Ukraine would rather be part of Russia? In Donbas, there are plenty of Ukrainians who are ethnic Russian, identify as Russian, speak Russian. And they're being attacked by fascist Ukrainians using weapons paid for by you and me.

now, before we go any further, let me once again condemn Russian aggression! Even if ethnic Russians in Ukraine would rather be part of Russia, that does not justify the Russian invasion, so don't try and put words in my mouth like I said it does! If you do, I'm calling you a nazi.

there's been civil conflict in Ukraine for years now. I struggle to understand how our pumping arms into the place does anything but escalate that conflict. I wasn't fully aware of this until our beloved corporate media told us we're supposed to be outraged about Ukraine. But not about anything about Ukraine beyond the Russian invasion of the place. Never mind the lethal aid and the ethnic cleansing and the war and corruption that's raged for years already, that's all immaterial, cuz what we really need now is Ukraine good Russia bad! and the only appropriate thing for us to do is to keep blindly throwing more weapons at it! Now, let's have a war!

Putin's not trying to denazify, so much as trying to push back on the expansion of world imperial powers. all of NATO's meddling in Ukraine (and the rest of Eastern Europe) has him on edge! If Putin was pumping arms into one of our neighbors, we woulda reacted like yesterday, and certainly wouldn't have sat around doing nothing about it for years.

Speaking of: remember the Cuban missile crisis, anyone? Turns out Russia DID try to arm a U.S. neighbor before, and the U.S. freaked right out about it! But, crisis was averted when Kruschev agreed to remove the missiles if Merica agreed to not invade Cuba.

...not that we can learn anything from the past.

no, the only acceptable response in this here situation now is more guns, more bombs, more war!

btw, Q reminds you to buy stocks in Raytheon.

I'm not going back through the thread. Ukraine did make Nazi-ism illegal earlier this year: https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemi ... cle-696680

The biggest thing though - Nazism (careful how you define that) in the world is a completely separate issue from the war in Ukraine. Trying to conflate them harms the actual cause.

thanks for the link mjl.

and making nazi-ism illegal is a good thing! hopefully it's not just some kinda lip service.

specifically tho, it didn't "make nazism illegal" so much as it amended an existing law to add criminal liability for antisemitism.

Hopefully that applies to more than just antisemitism, though, as apparently the latest flavor of Ukraine fascism also heavliy targets ethnic Russians, ethnic Roma, LGBTQ, and other historically oppressed minorities.

What country doesn't have these extremists? Why do you only bring it up regarding Ukraine? And only now?

I dunno. why DO we only bring it up regarding Ukraine, and only now?

yeah other countries have extremists too, but what makes Ukraine unique is their extremists get a bajillion dollars a day in "lethal aid" from none other than you and me. That just doesn't sit well with me, which is why I keep fussing.

Heck, even Russia has nazis. But could you imagine the outrage if we learned our tax dollars were being used to furnish weapons for Russian nazis?! Yikes! And yet, at the end of the day, what difference would it really be?

And yes, of all the wars raging in the world currently, there are a number of ironies that the only one we really hear about is the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

It's like talking to a brick wall

I still can't figure out what his goal is here....are we building up to something?

He brings up Putin's talking point about de-Nazifying Ukraine, completely ignorant to the fact that Nazi doesn't even have the same meaning to Russians, and then asks why we're discussing it. What is going on here?

We answer several times why we're talking about this war as opposed to other skirmishes in the world, he ignores it and brings it up again as if it's a good point.

We explain how Ukraine isn't run by Nazis, especially now, and he again claims it is.

He's gone. He's full QAnon. Completely unaware of availability bias, recency bias, the fact that that there are such things as coincidences, the fact that adductive reasoning can be used to "prove" anything. He's Lobster.

let me preface all this by saying, I wish we could be more civil in our discussions. I hope to bring more of that going forward.

I'll also say that when we're not so civil, and in particular, when you guys try to put all these words in my mouth and paint me as something I'm not, I can't help but want to stand up for myself.

Mjl wrote: ↑Tue Apr 12, 2022 11:26 am He brings up Putin's talking point about de-Nazifying Ukraine, completely ignorant to the fact that Nazi doesn't even have the same meaning to Russians, and then asks why we're discussing it. What is going on here?

in what way does it not have the same meaning to Russians?

We answer several times why we're talking about this war as opposed to other skirmishes in the world, he ignores it and brings it up again as if it's a good point.

hold on bro. I've brought up other skirmishes over and over, and in this very thread, yet no one else seemed to bother. Would you like to? Pakistan. Yemen. Syria. More U.S.-furnished wars that just don't get the same attention - wonder why?

Heck, if you wanna talk skirmishes, what exactly is Israel doing bombing Damascus on the daily? Why isn't that getting the same kind of press here? Why aren't we getting all sorts of feel good "Stand with Damascus" shit in the west, just like we're supposed to stand with Ukraine?

We explain how Ukraine isn't run by Nazis, especially now, and he again claims it is.

dude, you've hardly explained a thing. One lip service law "criminalizing antisemitism" does not equate to "isn't run by nazis." I've posted example after example of an alarming nazi presence in Ukraine, INCLUDING WITHIN UKRAINE'S OWN GOVERNMENT, INCLUDING OUR OWN GOVERNMENT'S CONCERNS, and it's been largely ignored. Why? The more innocuous answer is, cuz it's just some inconvenient truth, I guess? Who cares about downplaying nazism when the bigger endgame is vilifying Russia no matter what.

He's gone. He's full QAnon.

I know I've become more "radicalized," but I don't think it's in the direction you perceive it, so this concerns me. Could you please elaborate?

Specifically, what about my stance is far-right, in some QAnon sense? I think I've been consistently a bleeding heart anti-war, anti-nazi, pro-environment, pro-BLM, pro-defund the police, pro-LGBTQ, pro-indigenous, pro-free Peltier, pro-standing up for oppressed peoples everywhere, et al; which as far as I can tell, is not the far right side of the ideological bell curve.

Put it this way: while I'm afraid to think what the end game of a far right rise in power anywhere might be, trust me, if all these lefties had their way with the world, it would mostly just result in things like affordable healthcare, and better wages too....EEEEEEK!

after having thought more about the coincidence of the lefties and righties holding similar views about the Ukraine mess, it's that both lefties and rights are anti-imperialist, perhaps? Though, lefties are anti-imperialist in terms of being anti-the oppression that tends to come upon peoples when imperialism comes to town; and righties are anti-imperialist more in some more pro-nationalist sense? I dunno.

Completely unaware of availability bias, recency bias, the fact that that there are such things as coincidences, the fact that adductive reasoning can be used to "prove" anything.

says the guy who thinks one law against antisemitism solves the entire problem of nazism, to the exclusion of so many examples of nazism otherwise. What next, lemme guess - you think that because Obama was elected president then America's problem with racism must be over?

He's Lobster.

I don't know why you gotta keep calling me shit like this yet expect me to just shut my mouth. Please try to distinguish me from that bottom feeder!

Put the shoe on the other foot: if I was parading around here accusing you of being a nazi, would you just take it in stride? Or would you wanna clear the air? Of course you're not a nazi, that's why you've denied supporting nazism all along! It would take some unaware bias to make one think so, if not some shameless gaslight to fulfill the boogeyman in yer head, but either way all the allegations are unfounded, and could only cause further undue harm. right?

Now, TDub's still waiting for you at the bar. If you guys need me, I'll be next door at Johnny's. If you guys would like, feel free to join. I'll even buy the first round of "Blue Collar Lager," brewed by Free State exclusively for Johnny's! Honestly, it's prob my favorite craft lager. Besides, the bartenders are way cuter at Johnny's, plus solid pizza too.

but if you guys insist on sticking to the Gaslight, all I'll do is suggest the chartreuse.